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Soft/loud grouping patterns

Thank you for this thread. Sorry if my comments are a bit 'off-topic' for
AUDITORY, but clearly many of the finest, most integrative minds in this
field cohabit here.

>Subject: Re: effect of loudness on perceived duration

>>According to Handel, Fraisse explained this in his 1956 book as an
>>effect of grouping:
>>1. the louder events group with following quieter events .... [big snip]

I am reminded of the shift that occured in pop/rock in the 60s that was
somewhat generational. At folk festivals, the 'age' of the listener was
often apparent as to whether they clapped along by clapping on beats 1 &
3, or with the 'backbeat', 2 & 4. "Ol' timers" would clap on the 'strong
beats', the "young'uns" would clap on the off beat, as picked up from
rock influences.

>>1. Is there a general underlying principle operating here? Why would
>>louder events group with following quieter events rather than preceding
>>quieter events?

Perhaps the epitome of 'quiet-loud' grouping is the 1977 song by Queen,
"We Will Rock You", where the song is based on a pattern of we-we-sq (we
= weak eighth, sq = strong quarter).

As an aside, this e/e/q (and its doppleganger q/e/e) pattern has
fascinated me from a musical perspective. While Queen was reinforcing the
pattern noted above, the 'Disco' scene was re-inventing the strong down
beat. They were using the q/e/e pattern with the 'q' being the strong
(and down-) beat.

[The Village People {YMCA}, may have been influenced by the Quebecois
style of fiddle playing where the q/e/e pattern was reinforced by Coke
bottle caps nailed to the souls of the fiddler. !!?? <8-()>>]

In musical contexts, there would appear to be another layer of grouping
applied to the loud/soft grouping. Culture and context may be significant
here, for, as I hear the opening of the Mozart G minor Symphony (#40),
the grouping is also w/w/s (with /s/ being the ascending minor 6th),
spread out over several measures.

>In sum, events which are Longer, Louder or more Legato tend to group with
>following events. A sensory memory mechanism, such as proposed above, can
>account >for this (and incidently forward and backward masking).

This may be how Brahms (1st movement, Fourth Symphony) plays with the
mind in 'cross-referencing' legato - weak/strong patterns. (oops, There's
that descending third [ascending sixth] pattern that links these two