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Re: Melodic consonance
Eckard Blumschein <Eckard.Blumschein@E-TECHNIK.UNI-MAGDEBURG.DE> wrote :
>I particularly appreciate the references you gave with your comment
>they confirm my suspicion that you and presumably the majority of
>in music rely on authorities like Parncutt and Terhard who were
>slightly wrong in basic positions.
Thank you ; well, if you want to put me into a drawer than into that of
Zwicker, Fastl (1990), *Psychoacoustics -- Facts and Models* (Berlin:
Springer) rather, please... -- No, I don't believe the "sensory
dissonance (consonance)" theory being essentially wrong since I don't
believe in the CBW concept's being essentially wrong (though I'd think
other aspects (traditionally) apparent in music, as, e.g., timbral
difference (i.e., due to both spectral and temporal structure), spatial
distance, multichannel treatment, etc., worth to being considered in
that respect, too).
>Seebeck was perhaps the first one
>who tried to object even if he had no explanation why a heard
>was missing in the spectrum.
It wasn't yet the notion of "virtual pitch" (as based on the spectral
pitches produced by spectral peaks), apparently a "gestalt" phenomenon,
we were discussing about, yet (the being justified) of replacing (the
sensation of) "(melodic) consonance" by (the term) "pleasantness" (with
melodic coherence possibly referring to another (organic) "gestalt"
>You would like to refer to something
>like spectral acoustic energy over time.
Yes, and for several reasons, one being -- note that here I was
imagining sound sequences other than of purely "melodic"
appearance/harmonic origin -- that of pitch strength (distinctiveness)
in dependence on the spectral bandwidth of the sound stimulus (e.g.,
that of a pure tone vs that of a complex tone, a narrow-band noise, a
band-pass, a low-pass, a high-pass noise, an AM noise, a comb-filtered
noise..., respectively, cf. e.g., Zwicker, Fastl p.125) ; and another
one being the temporal aspect of which I am well aware as to pitch
sensation in relation to stimulus (temporal) structure and duration.
Btw, as has been discussed on this list concerning the spectral-centroid
concept recently I do share well some of the somewhat critical opinions
as to non-stationary (transient) sounds, as, e.g., in human speech, and
the impact of temporal envelopes (one might consider the example of a
reversed percussion sound/impulse), or furthermore examples of
manipulated sounds in electroacoustic music with rapidly changing
spectral envelope/pitch sensation, etc. -- and this is why I would like
to have it (the spectral centroid) time-running, as has been proposed
recently, too (while I am really finding it a very useful concept, just
with regard to (the analysis of) contemporary music, *yet* with more
strongly taking the temporal aspect into account).
-- As you might derive from this I am not against temporal aspects in
the sensation of sound complexes *at all* ; I do, however, see a light
(logical) contradiction in what you are writing below points #33 "based
... simultaneously on temporal coincidence, too" and #34 [being] "the
only plausible explanation" : while I would agree with #33 ("not just --
but too"), I wouldn't accept #34 as to it being the "only" (plausible)
explanation ; (to me) it is clear that "tonal listening" is, as you were
writing above, "simultaneously" tonotopically *and* temporally caused.
>I am happy having had the opportunity to
>initiate a discussion of #79:
>Die Wanderwelle ist wohl eher eine Begleiterscheinung lokaler und
>Resonanzen, ein Epiphänomen.
>(The traveling wave seems rather to be an attendant symptom of local
>radial resonances, i.e. an epiphenomenon.)
I note that it has been (is) a heated discussion on the list I was (am)
following with interest ; I might mention that, e.g., J.G. Roederer
(1977) in *Introduction to the Physics and Psychophysics of Music*
(Berlin : Springer) does (simplified) refer to "complicated resonance
patterns" on the basilar membrane in relation to harmonic complexes
(e.g., vowels, bird song) (cf. pp.60/61, German edition) ; btw, what
will "local resonances" cause if not spectral pitches (due to spectral
>What about dyads, I just guess, larger numbers were too demanding
Yes, this was a little my impression, too -- which yet doesn't prevent
me from finding this investigation, as I was writing, quite
"instructive" (among others I am aware of).
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