Re: The Bach choral dilemma

[Diana Deutsch <ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx>]

In some of these guitar pieces, the composer deliberately slows down
at the end, so that you realize you had  been experiencing a
continuity effect all along. Another remarkable example of an entire
piece that demonstrates of streaming plus continuity is Barrios's
'Una Limosna por el Amor de Dios' . (This can also be heard in a John
Williams recording - it's an extraordinarily beautiful piece anyway).

-Diana


> I saw a video tape of John Williams playing this. "Its kind of a trick" he
> said.  He plays it slow and you hear it as separate then he speeds it up and
> right before your "ears" you hear the fourth note come out of nowhere.  It
> was pretty amazing.
>
> Aaron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Diana Deutsch" <ddeutsch@UCSD.EDU>
> To: <AUDITORY@LISTS.MCGILL.CA>
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 2:03 PM
> Subject: Re: The Bach choral dilemma
>
>
> >  I'm glad you raised this, and agree that the literature contains some
> >  unconvincing examples of 'streaming' . On the other hand, one can
> >  find excellent examples  in classical and romantic guitar music, such
> >  as by Tarrega and Barrios, where one can also find continuity
> >  effects. Listen, for example, to Tarrega's 'Recuerdos de la Alhambra'.
> >
> >  Cheers,
> >
> >  Diana Deutsch
> >
> >
> >  >Dear Auditory Listers,
> >  >
> >  >Listening carefully to BWV 363 (Jesus Christus, unser Heiland), or BWV
> >  >364 (Jesus Christus, unser Heiland, der den Tod), I hardly hear it
> >  >streaming, if streaming at all.  Same for my Sensation & Perception
> >  >class.
> >  >
> >  >A collegue of mine, who owns a huge collection of Baroque music, told me
> >  >that BWV 363 is not a so good instance of polyphonic music.  So why
> >  >Bruce Goldstein presents it as such in his Sensation & Perception
> >  >textbook? (4th ed., 1996, p. 397; 5th ed., 1999, p. 360)
> >  >
> >  >The author provides a musical notation in Figure 12.11 (p. 360): four
> >  >measures of (what is probably, according to title) BWV 363.  The notes
> >  >clearly stream (VISUALLY, I mean).  I am not a musician, but the musical
> >  >notation seems to me quite simple for a so complex musical piece.  Can
> >  >someone confirm that the notation is the original?
> >  >
> >  >Goldstein notes: "When this passage is played rapidly, the low notes
> >  >sound as if they are a melody played by one instrument, and the high
> >  >notes sound like a different melody played by another instrument.  This
> >  >effect [...] is an example of auditory stream segregation [...]." (p.
> >  >360).  First, BWV 363 is refered to as an instrumental piece, while the
> >  >only instrument is the human voice (choral).  The fact that the human
> >  >voice is also a musical instrument should probably be emphasized to
> >  >musically naive students.  Secondly -- and more critically --, why
> >  >whould we have to play it rapidly, while the composer's intent was to
> >  >provide a polyphonic experience at the written tempo?
> >  >
> >  >An e-mail sent to the author at bruceg+@pitt-edu on Nov. 30, 2001, has
> >  >not been answered yet.
> >  >
> >  >A legal (30 sec.) excerpt of BWV 363 may probably be made available on
> >  >the Auditory List Home Page, if someone can provide it.  Are more
> >  >salient examples of Baroque polyphony known?
> >  >
> >  >I have a great respect for Goldstein's S&P textbook, and I hope Auditory
> >  >Listers will provide clues into (what my S&P class and I are now
> >  >refering to as) the Bach choral dilemma.
> >  >
> >  >Luc Rousseau, Ph.D.
> >  >Assistant Professor
> >  >Department of Psychology
> >  >Laurentian University
> >  >Sudbury, Ontario, Canada
> >
> >
> >  --
> >
> >
> >  Diana Deutsch
> >  Professor of Psychology
> >  Department of Psychology
> >  University of California, San Diego
> >  La Jolla, CA 92093, USA
> >
> >  858-453-1558 (tel)
> >  858-453-4763 (fax)
> >  ddeutsch@ucsd.edu
> >  http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch