[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

*To*: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx*Subject*: Re: identification task...negative d' values.*From*: Dan Ellis <dpwe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>*Date*: Wed, 3 May 2006 01:20:23 -0400*Delivery-date*: Wed May 3 02:58:08 2006*In-reply-to*: Your message of "Tue, 02 May 2006 23:15:18 EDT." <7.0.1.0.0.20060502231050.01b85698@bu.edu>*Reply-to*: Dan Ellis <dpwe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>*Sender*: AUDITORY Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

I've spent a chunk of the day trying to figure out what a negative d-prime implies, so I thought I'd send it to the list. Negative d' means false positive rate (proportion of backgrounds labeled target) is higher than true positive rate (proportion of targets labeled target), or equivalently false accept rate plus false reject rate is greater than 100%. The d' analysis is based on fitting the detection problem to a scenario in which you have a scalar decision variable whose mean (but not its variance) shifts depending on the true label. In this case, d' reports the shift in the mean, in units of the standard deviation, regardless of the actual decision threshold (false accept/false reject tradeoff) chosen. So it's useful for abstracting away from particular thresholds/cost assumptions to get at the underlying problem. However, if the problem isn't well characterized as a simple shift in mean, for instance if the variance changes between the two cases, d' is simply not a particularly good fit to the problem. Most importantly, if the variances are different, d' is no longer independent of the threshold choice, and thus subjects with differing internal preferences between false accepts and false rejects can't be accurately compared. Getting back to the negative d' detector, is it any use? You can make your d' positive by flipping your results. But if targets are much rarer than nontargets, it's not obvious this is necessarily a helpful thing to do. So, if you have a 30% true positive rate (you report target on 30% of target frames) and a 40% false positive rate (you report target on 40% of background frames), your false positive rate exceeds your true positive rate and you have a negative d-prime of -0.27. If targets occur with a prior probability of 1%, you make false accepts .99*.4 = 0.396 of the time and false rejects .01*.7 = 0.007 of the time, so you make errors 0.403 of the time, and correct detections 0.003 of the time (where perfect detection would be 0.01). Call this scenario A. If you flip your responses, you will report target now on 70% of your target frames, but also on 60% of background frames. Your d-prime will be +0.27, but you will make errors 0.594 + 0.003 = 0.597 of the time, and correct detections 0.007 of the time. So your overall error rate goes up. Call this scenario B. The preference between A and B depends on the relative cost of false accepts and false rejects, where looking at the error rate alone assumes equal costs. But if you knew the priors and cared about error rate, you could always just report background all the time (scenario C). Or if false rejects were really, really expensive, you could report target all the time (scenario D). With equal, unit costs to false rejects and false accepts, A costs .403, B costs .597, C costs 0.01 and D costs 0.99 - your original scheme had lower cost than the opposite, but you'd do better to just always report background. If false rejects cost 50 times more than false accepts, A costs 0.746, B costs 0.744, C costs .5, and D costs .99. So, you'd do better to flip your responses, but better still to report background all the time. If false rejects cost 100 times more that false accepts, A costs 1.096, B costs 0.894, C costs 1, and D costs .99. So now it's worth using your detector, but flipping the results. If false rejects cost 1000 times more that false accepts, A costs 7.396, B costs 3.594, C costs 10, and D costs .99. At this point, you should just report target all the time. So I don't think there's any rational basis when you'd want to use a detector with a d' below zero, except with the labels flipped to make a positive d' detector. DAn.

**Follow-Ups**:**Re: identification task...negative d' values.***From:*Pierre Divenyi

**References**:**Re: identification task...negative d' values.***From:*Erick Gallun

- Prev by Date:
**Re: perceptual segregation of sound** - Next by Date:
**Re: identification task...negative d' values.** - Previous by thread:
**Re: identification task...negative d' values.** - Next by thread:
**Re: identification task...negative d' values.** - Index(es):