Re: Melodic consonance (Alexandra Hettergott )

Subject: Re: Melodic consonance
From:    Alexandra Hettergott  <a.hettergott(at)WANADOO.FR>
Date:    Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:10:25 +0200

Eckard Blumschein <Eckard.Blumschein(at)E-TECHNIK.UNI-MAGDEBURG.DE> wrote : >I particularly appreciate the references you gave with your comment because >they confirm my suspicion that you and presumably the majority of experts >in music rely on authorities like Parncutt and Terhard who were possibly >slightly wrong in basic positions. Thank you ; well, if you want to put me into a drawer than into that of Zwicker, Fastl (1990), *Psychoacoustics -- Facts and Models* (Berlin: Springer) rather, please... -- No, I don't believe the "sensory dissonance (consonance)" theory being essentially wrong since I don't believe in the CBW concept's being essentially wrong (though I'd think other aspects (traditionally) apparent in music, as, e.g., timbral difference (i.e., due to both spectral and temporal structure), spatial distance, multichannel treatment, etc., worth to being considered in that respect, too). >Seebeck was perhaps the first one >who tried to object even if he had no explanation why a heard fundamental >was missing in the spectrum. It wasn't yet the notion of "virtual pitch" (as based on the spectral pitches produced by spectral peaks), apparently a "gestalt" phenomenon, we were discussing about, yet (the being justified) of replacing (the sensation of) "(melodic) consonance" by (the term) "pleasantness" (with melodic coherence possibly referring to another (organic) "gestalt" aspect). >You would like to refer to something >like spectral acoustic energy over time. Yes, and for several reasons, one being -- note that here I was imagining sound sequences other than of purely "melodic" appearance/harmonic origin -- that of pitch strength (distinctiveness) in dependence on the spectral bandwidth of the sound stimulus (e.g., that of a pure tone vs that of a complex tone, a narrow-band noise, a band-pass, a low-pass, a high-pass noise, an AM noise, a comb-filtered noise..., respectively, cf. e.g., Zwicker, Fastl p.125) ; and another one being the temporal aspect of which I am well aware as to pitch sensation in relation to stimulus (temporal) structure and duration. Btw, as has been discussed on this list concerning the spectral-centroid concept recently I do share well some of the somewhat critical opinions as to non-stationary (transient) sounds, as, e.g., in human speech, and the impact of temporal envelopes (one might consider the example of a reversed percussion sound/impulse), or furthermore examples of manipulated sounds in electroacoustic music with rapidly changing spectral envelope/pitch sensation, etc. -- and this is why I would like to have it (the spectral centroid) time-running, as has been proposed recently, too (while I am really finding it a very useful concept, just with regard to (the analysis of) contemporary music, *yet* with more strongly taking the temporal aspect into account). -- As you might derive from this I am not against temporal aspects in the sensation of sound complexes *at all* ; I do, however, see a light (logical) contradiction in what you are writing below points #33 "based ... simultaneously on temporal coincidence, too" and #34 [being] "the only plausible explanation" : while I would agree with #33 ("not just -- but too"), I wouldn't accept #34 as to it being the "only" (plausible) explanation ; (to me) it is clear that "tonal listening" is, as you were writing above, "simultaneously" tonotopically *and* temporally caused. >I am happy having had the opportunity to >initiate a discussion of #79: >Die Wanderwelle ist wohl eher eine Begleiterscheinung lokaler und radialer >Resonanzen, ein Epiph=E4nomen. >(The traveling wave seems rather to be an attendant symptom of local and >radial resonances, i.e. an epiphenomenon.) I note that it has been (is) a heated discussion on the list I was (am) following with interest ; I might mention that, e.g., J.G. Roederer (1977) in *Introduction to the Physics and Psychophysics of Music* (Berlin : Springer) does (simplified) refer to "complicated resonance patterns" on the basilar membrane in relation to harmonic complexes (e.g., vowels, bird song) (cf. pp.60/61, German edition) ; btw, what will "local resonances" cause if not spectral pitches (due to spectral peaks) ? >What about dyads, I just guess, larger numbers were too demanding Yes, this was a little my impression, too -- which yet doesn't prevent me from finding this investigation, as I was writing, quite "instructive" (among others I am aware of). ..... Alexandra Hettergott. _______________________ Alexandra Hettergott 1, avenue des Gobelins /bo=EEte 23 F-75005 Paris/France T=E9l/fax: +33-(0)1-43 31 41 27 M=E9l: a.hettergott(at) ... la noche, peque=F1os ruidos ... sombra y espacio, tierra y tiempo, algo que corre y cae y pasa ... (Pablo Neruda)

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