Re: absolute pitch & animals (Robert Zatorre )


Subject: Re: absolute pitch & animals
From:    Robert Zatorre  <robert.zatorre(at)mcgill.ca>
Date:    Thu, 29 Apr 2004 10:40:01 -0400

--=====================_3430189==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List I think one has to be very careful when saying that someone or some species= =20 "has absolute pitch". This can mean various different things which are not= =20 equivalent. There is lots of evidence that certain animals use absolute=20 pitch cues (for example, a generalization gradient to respond to a learned= =20 fixed pitch; or that vocalizations have a very stable pitch structure).=20 This is not necessarily functionally equivalent to the human musician's=20 ability to identify, by verbal labelling or otherwise, a large range of=20 pitches. Taken to its absurd extreme, according some of these definitions,= =20 my refrigerator at home "has absolute pitch" since it hums loudly every=20 evening at something pretty close to a b-flat! I always liked the idea, described by Ward among many others, that the=20 cognitively interesting aspect of the AP phenomenon was the ability to have= =20 a large number (up to 60 or so) of fixed categories along the pitch=20 continuum. This is very different from what usually happens with other=20 perceptual continua, such as loudness, intensity, weight, or hue, where the= =20 limit is typically on the order of 7-10 categories (Miller's magic number).= =20 In other words, everyone has the ability to make absolute judgments, but=20 they are very broad, whereas true AP people apparently possess very narrow= =20 perceptual categories, that they can then learn to attach a label to. I know of no animal evidence showing that any species can be trained to=20 pick out one of, say, 50 distinct responses to each of 50 distinct tone=20 frequencies. This is precisely what the best human AP possessors can do=20 quickly and without much effort. Only such a demonstration would constitute= =20 evidence that an animal possessed an analogous cognitive ability as the=20 human AP musicians. Until someone shows this, we should be careful about=20 making generalizations across species. I am NOT saying that studying these= =20 phenomena in animals is not useful--quite the contrary I think it's quite=20 important. I am only arguing that the phenomena should not be assumed to be= =20 identical, especially when behaviorally they are not the same at all. Robert PS This whole thread started when someone asked a perfectly reasonable and= =20 specific question about sex distribution in absolute pitch. Did anyone ever= =20 answer that, or is all this free-association that I am also contributing to= =20 all we got out of it? Perhaps the list would work better if we all=20 refrained from giving random opinions, and stuck to addressing specific=20 issues. Or am I just being grumpy? PPS For further reading (of my views, anyhow): Zatorre, R.J. (2003)=20 Absolute pitch: a model for understanding the influence of genes and=20 development on neural and cognitive function. Nature Neuroscience, 6,= 692-695. At 09:45 29/04/04 +0200, Leon van Noorden wrote: >Annemarie, >I completely agree with you that verbal labeling of the aboslute pitch=20 >categories is only one stage in the perception process. These labels=20 >depend on what you have learned when you were young. I see it more as a=20 >way to access the outcome of the absolute pitch processor. It would be=20 >interesting to know what are the labels the animals attach here. What do=20 >they imagine when they hear a certain absolut pitch object? >Do they "see" a big or small ape? or a "red" or "green" goldfinch? >Leon >-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >Van: AUDITORY Research in Auditory Perception=20 >[mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA]namens Annemarie Seither-Preisler >Verzonden: 29 apr 04 9:09 >Aan: AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA >Onderwerp: absolute pitch > >If absolute pitch were a phenomenon exclusively due to learned verbal=20 >categories, how would one explain the finding that several investigated=20 >animal species have absolute pitch? > > >(a) songbirds >Hulse, S. H. & Cynx, J. Relative pitch perception is constrained by=20 >absolute pitch in songbirds (Mimus, Molothrus, and Sturnus). J Comp=20 >Psychol 99, 176-196 (1985). >(b) monkeys and rats >D'Amato, M. R. A search for tonal pattern perception in cebus monkeys: Why= =20 >monkeys can=92t hum a tune. Music Perception 4, 453-480 (1988). >(c) echolocating bats >Schmidt, S., Preisler, A. & Sedlmeier, H. in Advances in Hear Res (eds.=20 >Manley, G. A., Klump, G., K=F6ppl, C., Fastl, H. & Oeckinghaus, H.) 374-382= =20 >(World Scientific Publishers, Singapore, 1994). >Preisler, A. & Schmidt, S. in 23rd G=F6ttingen Neurobiology Conference= (eds.=20 >Elsner, N. & Menzel, R.) 309 (Georg Thieme Verlag, Stuttgart, 1995). > > >The findings by Saffran appear to be very revealing in this respect,=20 >showing that young infants at the age of 8 months, unlike adults,=20 >primarily rely on absolute pitch cues. > > >Saffran, J. R. & Griepentrog, G. J. Absolute pitch in infant auditory=20 >learning: evidence for developmental reorganization. Dev Psychol 37, 74-85= =20 >(2001). >Saffran, J. R. Musical Learning and Language Development. Ann NY Acad Sci= =20 >999, 397-401 (2003). > > >In summary, these results suggest that absolute pitch is a primary=20 >perceptual mode that is heavily superseded by relative pitch (probably in= =20 >the course of language acquisition). Early musical training or learning a= =20 >tonal language like Thai or Japanese may help to prevent this edging=20 >out-process, with the consequence that certain subjects retain the ability= =20 >to perceive absolute pitch throughout life. Verbal categorizations of=20 >notes may be helpful in this respect, but it would be misleading to take=20 >them for the main underlying cause. > > >Annemarie Seither-Preisler > > > > >Dr. Annemarie Seither-Preisler > > > >Universit=E4tsklinikum M=FCnster > >Abteilung f=FCr Experimentelle Audiologie > >Klinik und Poliklinik f=FCr Hals-, Nasen- und Ohrenheilkunde >Kardinal von Galen Ring 10 > >D-48149 M=FCnster > > > >Tel.: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56817 > >Fax: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56882 > >Email: preisler(at)uni-muenster.de > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Robert J. Zatorre, Ph.D. Montreal Neurological Institute 3801 University St. Montreal, QC Canada H3A 2B4 phone: 1-514-398-8903 fax: 1-514-398-1338 web site: www.zlab.mcgill.ca --=====================_3430189==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <font size=3D3>Dear List<br> <br> I think one has to be very careful when saying that someone or some species &quot;has absolute pitch&quot;. This can mean various different things which are not equivalent. There is lots of evidence that certain animals use absolute pitch cues (for example, a generalization gradient to respond to a learned fixed pitch; or that vocalizations have a very stable pitch structure). This is not necessarily functionally equivalent to the human musician's ability to identify, by verbal labelling or otherwise, a large range of pitches. Taken to its absurd extreme, according some of these definitions, my refrigerator at home &quot;has absolute pitch&quot; since it hums loudly every evening at something pretty close to a b-flat!<br> <br> I always liked the idea, described by Ward among many others, that the cognitively interesting aspect of the AP phenomenon was the ability to have a large number (up to 60 or so) of fixed categories along the pitch continuum. This is very different from what usually happens with other perceptual continua, such as loudness, intensity, weight, or hue, where the limit is typically on the order of 7-10 categories (Miller's magic number). In other words, everyone has the ability to make absolute judgments, but they are very broad, whereas true AP people apparently possess very narrow perceptual categories, that they can then learn to attach a label to.<br> <br> I know of no animal evidence showing that any species can be trained to pick out one of, say, 50 distinct responses to each of 50 distinct tone frequencies. This is precisely what the best human AP possessors can do quickly and without much effort. Only such a demonstration would constitute evidence that an animal possessed an analogous cognitive ability as the human AP musicians. Until someone shows this, we should be careful about making generalizations across species. I am NOT saying that studying these phenomena in animals is not useful--quite the contrary I think it's quite important. I am only arguing that the phenomena should not be assumed to be identical, especially when behaviorally they are not the same at all.<br> <br> Robert<br> <br> PS This whole thread started when someone asked a perfectly reasonable and specific question about sex distribution in absolute pitch. Did anyone ever answer that, or is all this free-association that I am also contributing to all we got out of it? Perhaps the list would work better if we all refrained from giving random opinions, and stuck to addressing specific issues. Or am I just being grumpy?<br> <br> PPS For further reading (of my views, anyhow): Zatorre, R.J. (2003) Absolute pitch: a model for understanding the influence of genes and development on neural and cognitive function. <i>Nature Neuroscience</i>, 6, 692-695.<br> <br> <br> At 09:45 29/04/04 +0200, Leon van Noorden wrote:<br> </font><blockquote type=3Dcite cite><font face=3D"arial" size=3D2= color=3D"#0000FF">Annemarie,</font><font size=3D3><br> </font><font face=3D"arial" size=3D2 color=3D"#0000FF">I completely agree wi= th you that verbal labeling of the aboslute pitch categories is only one stage in the perception process. These labels depend on what you have learned when you were young. I see it more as a way to access the outcome of the absolute pitch processor. It would be interesting to know what are the labels the animals attach here. What do they imagine when they hear a certain absolut pitch object?</font><font size=3D3><br> </font><font face=3D"arial" size=3D2 color=3D"#0000FF">Do they &quot;see&quo= t; a big or small ape? or a &quot;red&quot; or &quot;green&quot; goldfinch?</font><font size=3D3><br> </font><font face=3D"arial" size=3D2 color=3D"#0000FF">Leon</font><font= size=3D3></font> <dl><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D2> <dd>-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- <dd>Van:</b> AUDITORY Research in Auditory Perception [<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA%5Dnamens"= eudora=3D"autourl">mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA]</a><a= href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA%5Dnamens" eudora=3D"autourl">namens= </a></b> Annemarie Seither-Preisler <dd>Verzonden:</b> 29 apr 04 9:09 <dd>Aan:</b> AUDITORY(at)LISTS.MCGILL.CA <dd>Onderwerp:</b> absolute pitch<br> <br> </font><font face=3D"arial" size=3D2> <dd>If absolute pitch were a phenomenon exclusively due to learned verbal categories, how would one explain the finding that several investigated animal species have absolute pitch? </font><font size=3D3> <dd>&nbsp;<br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <dd>(a) songbirds</font><font size=3D3></font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier"= size=3D2> <dd>Hulse, S. H. &amp; Cynx, J. Relative pitch perception is constrained by absolute pitch in songbirds (Mimus, Molothrus, and Sturnus). J Comp Psychol</i> 99</b>, 176-196 (1985).</font><font size=3D3></font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier"= size=3D2> <dd>(b) monkeys and rats</font><font size=3D3></font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D= 2> <dd>D'Amato, M. R. A search for tonal pattern perception in cebus monkeys: Why monkeys can=92t hum a tune. Music Perception</i> 4</b>, 453-480 (1988).</font><font size=3D3></font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier"= size=3D2> <dd>(c) echolocating bats</font><font size=3D3></font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D= 2> <dd>Schmidt, S., Preisler, A. &amp; Sedlmeier, H. in Advances in Hear Res</i> (eds. Manley, G. A., Klump, G., K=F6ppl, C., Fastl, H. &amp; Oeckinghaus, H.) 374-382 (World Scientific Publishers, Singapore, 1994).</font><font size=3D3></font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier"= size=3D2> <dd>Preisler, A. &amp; Schmidt, S. in 23rd G=F6ttingen Neurobiology Conference</i> (eds. Elsner, N. &amp; Menzel, R.) 309 (Georg Thieme Verlag, Stuttgart, 1995).</font><font size=3D3> <dd>&nbsp;<br> <br> </font><font face=3D"arial" size=3D2> <dd>The findings by Saffran appear to be very revealing in this respect, showing that young infants at the age of 8 months, unlike adults, primarily rely on absolute pitch cues.</font><font size=3D3> <dd>&nbsp;<br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <dd>Saffran, J. R. &amp; Griepentrog, G. J. Absolute pitch in infant auditory learning: evidence for developmental reorganization. Dev Psychol</i> 37</b>, 74-85 (2001).</font><font size=3D3></font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier"= size=3D2> <dd>Saffran, J. R. Musical Learning and Language Development. Ann NY Acad Sci</i> 999</b>, 397-401 (2003).</font><font size=3D3> <dd>&nbsp;<br> <br> </font><font face=3D"arial" size=3D2> <dd>In summary, these results suggest that absolute pitch is a primary perceptual mode that is heavily superseded by relative pitch (probably in the course of language acquisition).&nbsp; Early musical training or learning a tonal language like Thai or Japanese may help to prevent this edging out-process, with the consequence that certain subjects retain the ability to perceive absolute pitch throughout life. Verbal categorizations of notes may be helpful in this respect, but it would be misleading to take them for the main underlying cause. </font><font size=3D3> <dd>&nbsp;<br> <br> </font><font face=3D"arial" size=3D2> <dd>Annemarie Seither-Preisler</font><font size=3D3> <dd>&nbsp;<br> <br> <dd>&nbsp;<br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <dd>Dr. Annemarie Seither-Preisler</font><font size=3D3> <br> <br> <dd>&nbsp;<br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <dd>Universit=E4tsklinikum M=FCnster</font><font size=3D3> <br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <dd>Abteilung f=FCr Experimentelle Audiologie</font><font size=3D3> <br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <dd>Klinik und Poliklinik f=FCr Hals-, Nasen- und Ohrenheilkunde </font><font size=3D3></font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <dd>Kardinal von Galen Ring 10</font><font size=3D3> <br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <dd>D-48149 M=FCnster</font><font size=3D3> <br> <br> <dd>&nbsp;<br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <dd>Tel.: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56817</font><font size=3D3> <br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <dd>Fax: 0049 / 251 / 83 / 56882</font><font size=3D3> <br> <br> </font><font face=3D"Courier New, Courier" size=3D2> <dd>Email: preisler(at)uni-muenster.de</font><font size=3D3> <dd>&nbsp;</font> </dl></blockquote><br> <div>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div> <br> <div>Robert J. Zatorre, Ph.D.</div> <div>Montreal Neurological Institute</div> <div>3801 University St.</div> <div>Montreal, QC Canada H3A 2B4</div> <div>phone: 1-514-398-8903</div> <div>fax: 1-514-398-1338</div> <div>web site: <a href=3D"http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca/"= EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>www.zlab.mcgill.ca</a></div> </html> --=====================_3430189==_.ALT--


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