Subject: Re: Absolute pitch discussion From: Diana Deutsch <ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 10:58:01 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Apple-Mail-1-513684105 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear Martin et al, Concerning your statement: > we do not even have the faintest trace of a hypothesis how a brain =20 > could accomplish RP. please see Deutsch, D. Music recognition. Psychological Review , 1969, 76, =20 300-309. [PDF Document] for a proposed neural network that would accomplish recognition of =20 musical intervals and chords under transposition and inversion, =20 together with a discussion of the relevant neurophysiological =20 evidence that existed at that time. See also my chapter 'The processing of pitch combinations' in =20 Deutsch, D. (Ed.) The Psychology of Music. 2nd Edition. San Diego: =20 Academic Press, 1999 which revisits this model with updated =20 references, together with the chapter 'Neural nets, temporal =20 composites, and tonality' by Jamshed Bharucha in the same volume. Further at the neurophysiological level, please also see the work of =20= the Gerald Langner on the ventral nucleus of the lateral lemniscus. Diana ---------------------------------------------- Professor Diana Deutsch Department of Psychology University of California, San Diego 9500 Gilman Dr. #0109 La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA 858-453-1558 (tel) 858-453-4763 (fax) http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch On Sep 8, 2007, at 8:24 AM, Martin Braun wrote: > Dear Henkjan and list: > >> ..... in the end we have to also see that Relative Pitch is far more >> special. While we might share AP with some animals, RP is far less =20= >> common, >> arguably making AP in humans less special. > > I fully agree. RP is a much bigger challenge for neuroscience than =20 > AP is. To > my knowledge, we do not even have the faintest trace of a =20 > hypothesis how a > brain could accomplish RP. > > Martin > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Martin Braun > Neuroscience of Music > S-671 95 Kl=E4ssbol > Sweden > web site: http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henkjan Honing" <honing@xxxxxxxx> > To: <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 4:42 PM > Subject: Re: Absolute pitch discussion > > > Although I have to be modest in my claims, not being an expert in > pitch, I find AP actually not such a special phenomenon. Although we > could agree in dividing the phenomenon in degrees, or levels of > preciseness on a more continuous scale, in the end we have to also > see that Relative Pitch is far more special. While we might share AP > with some animals, RP is far less common, arguably making AP in > humans less special. > > hh > > > Dr H. Honing > Universiteit van Amsterdam > http://www.hum.uva.nl/mmm/hh/ > > Music Matters: http://www.musiccognition.nl/blog > > __________________________________________________ > --Apple-Mail-1-513684105 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 <HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; = -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Martin et al,<DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Concerning your = statement:</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">we do not even have the faintest trace of a = hypothesis how a=A0brain could accomplish RP.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>please see=A0<DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial">Deutsch, D. Music recognition. = </FONT><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial"><I>=A0Psychological= Review</I></FONT><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial"> = ,=A01969, </FONT><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Arial"><I>76</I></FONT><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Arial">,=A0 300-309. [</FONT><A = href=3D"http://philomel.com/pdf/PsychRev-1969_76_300-307.pdf"><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial"><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span"= color=3D"#0000F0">PDF Document</FONT></FONT></A><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial">]=A0</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial"><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial">for a proposed neural network = that would accomplish recognition of musical intervals and chords under = transposition and inversion, together with a discussion of the relevant = neurophysiological evidence that existed at that = time.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial"><BR= class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial">See=A0also my chapter = '</FONT><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial"><I>The = processing of pitch combinations</I></FONT><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial">'=A0in=A0Deutsch, D. (Ed.) <A = href=3D"http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0122135652/104-0516202-5039967?v=3D= glance&n=3D283155&%5Fencoding=3DUTF8&v=3Dglance"><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#0000F0"><I>The Psychology of = Music</I></FONT></A>. 2nd Edition. San Diego: Academic Press, 1999 which = revisits this model with updated references, together with the chapter = '</FONT><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial"><I>Neural nets, = temporal composites</I></FONT><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Arial"><I>, and tonality'</I></FONT><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial"> by Jamshed Bharucha in the = same volume.=A0</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Arial"><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial">Further at the = neurophysiological level, please</FONT><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Arial">=A0 also see the work of the Gerald Langner on the = ventral nucleus of the lateral lemniscus.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial"><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT = class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Arial">Diana<BR></FONT><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>------------------------= ----------------------</DIV><DIV>Professor Diana = Deutsch</DIV><DIV>Department of Psychology=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0</DIV><DIV>University of California, San = Diego</DIV><DIV>9500 Gilman Dr. #0109=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0</DIV><DIV>= La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>858-453-1558 = (tel)</DIV><DIV>858-453-4763 (fax)</DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><A = href=3D"http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch">http://www-psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeuts= ch</A></DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>On Sep 8, 2007, at 8:24 AM, = Martin Braun wrote:</DIV><BR = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Dear Henkjan and list:</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">..... in the end we have to also see that Relative = Pitch is far more</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">special. While we might share AP = with some animals, RP is far less common,</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">arguably = making AP in humans less special.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I fully = agree. RP is a much bigger challenge for neuroscience than AP is. = To</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">my knowledge, we do not even have the faintest = trace of a hypothesis how a</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">brain could = accomplish RP.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Martin</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = ">---------------------------------------------------------------------</D= IV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Martin Braun</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Neuroscience = of Music</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">S-671 95 Kl=E4ssbol</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Sweden</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">web site: <A = href=3D"http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/index.htm">http://w1.570.telia.= com/~u57011259/index.htm</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">----- = Original Message ----- From: "Henkjan Honing" <<A = href=3D"mailto:honing@xxxxxxxx">honing@xxxxxxxx</A>></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">To: <<A = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</A>><= /DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 4:42 = PM</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: Absolute pitch = discussion</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Although = I have to be modest in my claims, not being an expert in</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">pitch, I find AP actually not such a special = phenomenon. Although we</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">could agree = in dividing the phenomenon in degrees, or levels of</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">preciseness on a more continuous scale, in the end = we have to also</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">see that Relative Pitch is far = more special. While we might share AP</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with = some animals, RP is far less common, arguably making AP in</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">humans less special.</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">hh</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; = min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Dr H. = Honing</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Universiteit van = Amsterdam</DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A = href=3D"http://www.hum.uva.nl/mmm/hh/">http://www.hum.uva.nl/mmm/hh/</A></= DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Music Matters: <A = href=3D"http://www.musiccognition.nl/blog">http://www.musiccognition.nl/bl= og</A></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; = ">__________________________________________________</DIV><DIV = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> = </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><BR><BR> <SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></SPAN><DIV><SPAN = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>= --Apple-Mail-1-513684105--