Re: harmonic extraction (Pdivenyi )


Subject: Re: harmonic extraction
From:    Pdivenyi  <pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx>
Date:    Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:08:34 -0700
List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>

--Apple-Mail-3-20994813 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, Your explanation loses it's punch when you realize that it is theidd =20 harmonics that add up into a square wave. Not mentioning the probably =20= better explanation by.Blb Carlyon. Pierre Sent from my iPhone On Mar 27, 2009, at 9:15 AM, David Smith <smithd@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > Please pardon the brevity of my previous post. > > I also noticed, while using an "exciter" effect, which adds =20 > harmonics to > a signal that, in the presence of a signal with many even harmonics, > I can't hear the addition of odd harmonics. My knowledge in this area > is not extensive but I can think of a possible explanation: > > Successive in-phase addition of even harmonics produces a square > wave. Successive in-phase addition of odd harmonics yields a > triangle wave. A square wave has much more power than a triangle > wave of the same peak amplitude so you have more signal. > > Absorptive and dispersion losses are greater at higher pressure, > not higher power. So triangle waves, composed of odd harmonics, > lose a greater portion of their power to non-resonant or damped > systems, cavities and membranes with partially absorptive components > or boundaries. Speakers, headphones, ears, and air all contain > partially absorptive components. > > If you lop off the top of a triangle wave you end up with something > closer to a square wave, a signal which sounds like it has been built > with in-phase even harmonics. > > Signals composed of components with partial phase differences > would be more complicated. I have not considered them. > > Dave Smith > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Bregman" > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] harmonic extraction > Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:51:32 -0400 > > > On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 9:58 AM, David Smith wrote: > > > Given the stimuli, I think you would be hard pressed to find a =20 > mechanical > > system, > > the atmosphere and ear included, which did not exhibit response at =20= > 200Hz. > > > Dear David, > > Please expand on this. It's not clear how you intend this to explain > Jim Bashford's observations. > > - Al > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Al Bregman" > > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > > Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] harmonic extraction > > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:46:37 -0400 > > > > > > Dear James, > > > > This example of duplex perception, outside the domain of speech, and > > clearly not involving two distinct mental "modules", is very > > interesting, throws a different light on duplex perception of =20 > speech, > > and is certainly worth further development and publication.. > > > > Best, > > Al > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Albert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor > > Psychology Department, McGill University > > 1205 Docteur Penfield Avenue > > Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1. > > Office: Phone: (514) 398-6103 > > Fax: (514) 398-4896 > > Residence phone & fax: (514) 484-2592 > > www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:35 AM, James Bashford wrote: > >> Dear Xueliang Zhang, > >> > >> I was intrigued by the interchange between you, Yoshitaka =20 > Nakajima, and > >> Al Bregman, and did some listening, diotically through =20 > headphones, to > >> stimuli consisting of the first 10 harmonics of 100 Hz =20 > alternating with > >> the > >> 5 even harmonics of that stimulus (all harmonics were presented =20 > at the > >> same > >> level). With on/off times for each complex matched at either 0.5 =20= > sec or > >> 1.0 > >> sec (10 ms rise/fall), I hear a fully continous 200-Hz tone that =20= > matches > >> the > >> intensity and timbre of the isolated even-harmonic complex. More > >> interesting, however, is that the 10-component =E2=80=9Call-harmonic=E2= =80=9D =20 > stimulus, > >> which is heard intermittently, has not only the 100-Hz pitch of =20 > that > >> complex > >> but also retains the loudness and timbre of the all-harmonic =20 > stimulus as > >> heard when it is presented in isolation. Were the even harmonics =20= > of the > >> all-harmonic complex exclusively allocated to support perception =20= > of the > >> continuous 200-Hz complex tone -- leaving only the odd-harmonics to > >> support > >> perception of the 100 Hz tone -- we would expect both a reduction =20= > in > >> loudness and a clear shift in timbre to the =E2=80=9Chollow=E2=80=9D = quality > >> characteristic > >> of odd-harmonic signals. This suggests that the =E2=80=9Cpriming=E2=80= =9D or =20 > =E2=80=9Ccapture=E2=80=9D > >> effect observed with complex tones provides an example of duplex > >> perception > >> that requires neither a verbal stimulus nor dichotic =20 > presentation. As I > >> recall, Al Bregman has previously suggested that such an effect =20 > might > >> occur > >> when nonverbal stimulus input is strongly ambiguous. > >> > >> This use of the even-harmonic components to support two =20 > simultaneous > >> percepts (that of both the intermittent =E2=80=9Call-harmonic=E2=80=9D= tone =20 > and the > >> continuous even-harmonic tone) contrasts sharply with the =20 > processing > >> underlying the general phenomenon of illusory continuity that is =20= > observed > >> when one sound alternates with a higher-intensity, potential =20 > masking > >> sound. The latter effect, which has been called auditory induction > >> (Warren, > >> 1972), occurs with a wide variety of signals, such as tones =20 > alternating > >> with > >> other tones, noise alternating with higher intensity noise, or =20 > speech > >> interrupted by noise (phonemic restoration). This type of =20 > continuity, in > >> which there are no exactly matching components to be found =20 > between the > >> alternating signals, does appear to involve subtractive or =20 > exclusive > >> allocation. For interrupted tones, noise, or speech, continuity is > >> obtained > >> at the expense of the interrupting signal, which is reduced in =20 > loudness by > >> an amount proportional to the extent the illusion (Warren et al., =20= > 1994). > >> > >> Warren, R. M., Obusek, C. and Ackroff, J. M. (1972). Auditory =20 > induction: > >> Perceptual synthesis of absent sounds. Science, 176, 1149-1151. > >> > >> Warren, R. M., Bashford, J. A., Jr., Healy, E. W., and Brubaker, =20= > B. S. > >> (1994). Auditory induction: Reciprocal changes in alternating =20 > sounds. > >> Perception & Psychophysics, 55, 313-322. > >> > >> > >> > >> James Bashford > >> > >> On Mar 19, 2009, at 5:24 AM, xlzhang wrote: > >> > >> Dear list, > >> A pure tone can extract corresponding harmonic from complex sound =20= > when > >> appearing alternatively. I wonder if a harmonic sound can do the =20= > same job? > >> For example, a complex sound with F0=3D200Hz appears with a complex = =20 > sound > >> with F0=3D100 Hz, can we get a continuous perception for F0=3D200Hz? > >> Thank you for your answers in advance. > >> > >> Xueliang Zhang > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -- > > Be Yourself @xxxxxxxx mail.com! > > Choose =46rom 200+ Email Addresses > > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com! > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Albert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor > Psychology Department, McGill University > 1205 Docteur Penfield Avenue > Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1. > Office: Phone: (514) 398-6103 > Fax: (514) 398-4896 > Residence phone & fax: (514) 484-2592 > www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > Be Yourself @xxxxxxxx mail.com! > Choose =46rom 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com! --Apple-Mail-3-20994813 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>David,</div><div><br></div><div>Your = explanation loses it's punch when you realize that it is theidd = harmonics that add up into a square wave. Not mentioning the probably = better explanation by.Blb = Carlyon.</div><div><br></div><div>Pierre</div><div><br>Sent from my = iPhone</div><div><br>On Mar 27, 2009, at 9:15 AM, David Smith &lt;<a = href=3D"mailto:smithd@xxxxxxxx">smithd@xxxxxxxx</a>> = wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div> <div> <br> <br>Please pardon the brevity of my previous post.<br><br>I also = noticed, while using an "exciter" effect, which adds harmonics to <br>a = signal that, in the presence of a signal with many even harmonics, <br>I = can't hear the addition of odd harmonics.&nbsp; My knowledge in this = area<br>is not extensive but I can think of a possible = explanation:<br><br>Successive in-phase addition of even harmonics = produces a square <br>wave.&nbsp; Successive in-phase addition of odd = harmonics yields a <br>triangle wave. A square wave has much more power = than a triangle <br>wave of the same peak amplitude so you have more = signal.&nbsp; <br><br>Absorptive and dispersion losses are greater at = higher pressure, <br>not higher power. So triangle waves, composed of = odd harmonics, <br>lose a greater portion of their power to non-resonant = or damped <br>systems, cavities and membranes with partially absorptive = components <br>or boundaries.&nbsp; Speakers, headphones, ears, and air = all contain<br>partially absorptive components.<br><br>If you lop off = the top of a triangle wave you end up with something <br>closer to a = square wave, a signal which sounds like it has been built<br>with = in-phase even harmonics.<br><br>Signals composed of components with = partial phase differences <br>would be more complicated.&nbsp; I have = not considered them.<br><br>Dave Smith<br> <blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); = margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">----- Original Message -----<br> From: "Al Bregman" <al.bregman@xxxxxxxx><br> To: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx"><a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a></a><= br> Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] harmonic extraction<br> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:51:32 -0400<br> <br> <br> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 9:58 AM, David Smith <smithd@xxxxxxxx> = wrote:<br> <br> > Given the stimuli, I think you would be hard pressed to find a = mechanical<br> > system,<br> > the atmosphere and ear included, which did not exhibit response at = 200Hz.<br> <br> <br> Dear David,<br> <br> Please expand on this. It's not clear how you intend this to = explain<br> Jim Bashford's observations.<br> <br> - Al<br> ----------------------------------------------------------<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > ----- Original Message -----<br> > From: "Al Bregman"<br> > To: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx"><a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a></a><= br> > Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] harmonic extraction<br> > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:46:37 -0400<br> ><br> ><br> > Dear James,<br> ><br> > This example of duplex perception, outside the domain of speech, = and<br> > clearly not involving two distinct mental "modules", is very<br> > interesting, throws a different light on duplex perception of = speech,<br> > and is certainly worth further development and publication..<br> ><br> > Best,<br> > Al<br> > = -------------------------------------------------------------------<br> > Albert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor<br> > Psychology Department, McGill University<br> > 1205 Docteur Penfield Avenue<br> > Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1.<br> > Office: Phone: (514) 398-6103<br> > Fax: (514) 398-4896<br> > Residence phone &amp; fax: (514) 484-2592<br> > <a href=3D"http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html"><a = href=3D"http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html">www.psych.mcgi= ll.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html</a></a><br> > = -------------------------------------------------------------------<br> ><br> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:35 AM, James Bashford wrote:<br> >> Dear Xueliang Zhang,<br> >><br> >> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I was intrigued by the interchange between you, = Yoshitaka Nakajima, and<br> >> Al Bregman, and did some listening, diotically through headphones, = to<br> >> stimuli consisting of the first 10 harmonics of 100 Hz alternating = with<br> >> the<br> >> 5 even harmonics of that stimulus (all harmonics were presented at = the<br> >> same<br> >> level).&nbsp;&nbsp;With on/off times for each complex matched at = either 0.5 sec or<br> >> 1.0<br> >> sec (10 ms rise/fall), I hear a fully continous 200-Hz tone that = matches<br> >> the<br> >> intensity and timbre of the isolated even-harmonic = complex.&nbsp;&nbsp;More<br> >> interesting, however, is that the 10-component =E2=80=9Call-harmonic=E2= =80=9D stimulus,<br> >> which is heard intermittently, has not only the 100-Hz pitch of = that<br> >> complex<br> >> but also retains the loudness and timbre of the all-harmonic stimulus = as<br> >> heard when it is presented in isolation.&nbsp;&nbsp;Were the even = harmonics of the<br> >> all-harmonic complex exclusively allocated to support perception of = the<br> >> continuous 200-Hz complex tone -- leaving only the odd-harmonics = to<br> >> support<br> >> perception of the 100 Hz tone -- we would expect both a reduction = in<br> >> loudness and a clear shift in timbre to the =E2=80=9Chollow=E2=80=9D = quality<br> >> characteristic<br> >> of odd-harmonic signals.&nbsp;&nbsp;This suggests that the = =E2=80=9Cpriming=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ccapture=E2=80=9D<br> >> effect observed with complex tones provides an example of duplex<br> >> perception<br> >> that requires neither a verbal stimulus nor dichotic = presentation.&nbsp;&nbsp;As I<br> >> recall, Al Bregman has previously suggested that such an effect = might<br> >> occur<br> >> when nonverbal stimulus input is strongly ambiguous.<br> >><br> >> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;This use of the even-harmonic = components to support two simultaneous<br> >> percepts (that of both the intermittent =E2=80=9Call-harmonic=E2=80=9D = tone and the<br> >> continuous even-harmonic tone) contrasts sharply with the = processing<br> >> underlying the general phenomenon of illusory continuity that is = observed<br> >> when one sound alternates with a higher-intensity, potential = masking<br> >> sound.&nbsp;&nbsp;The latter effect, which has been called auditory = induction<br> >> (Warren,<br> >> 1972), occurs with a wide variety of signals, such as tones = alternating<br> >> with<br> >> other tones, noise alternating with higher intensity noise, or = speech<br> >> interrupted by noise (phonemic restoration).&nbsp;&nbsp;This type of = continuity, in<br> >> which there are no exactly matching components to be found between = the<br> >> alternating signals, does appear to involve subtractive or = exclusive<br> >> allocation.&nbsp;&nbsp;For interrupted tones, noise, or speech, = continuity is<br> >> obtained<br> >> at the expense of the interrupting signal, which is reduced in = loudness by<br> >> an amount proportional to the extent the illusion (Warren et al., = 1994).<br> >><br> >> Warren, R. M., Obusek, C. and Ackroff, J. M. (1972). Auditory = induction:<br> >> Perceptual synthesis of absent sounds.&nbsp;Science, 176, = 1149-1151.<br> >><br> >> Warren, R. M., Bashford, J. A., Jr., Healy, E. W., and Brubaker, B. = S.<br> >> (1994). Auditory induction: Reciprocal changes in alternating = sounds.<br> >> Perception &amp; Psychophysics, 55, 313-322.<br> >><br> >><br> >><br> >> James Bashford<br> >><br> >> On Mar 19, 2009, at 5:24 AM, xlzhang wrote:<br> >><br> >> Dear list,<br> >> A pure tone can extract corresponding harmonic from complex sound = when<br> >> appearing alternatively. I wonder if a harmonic sound can do the same = job?<br> >> For example, a complex sound with F0=3D200Hz appears with a complex = sound<br> >> with F0=3D100 Hz, can we get a continuous perception for = F0=3D200Hz?<br> >> Thank you for your answers in advance.<br> >><br> >> Xueliang Zhang<br> >><br> >><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > --<br> ><br> > --<br> > Be Yourself @xxxxxxxx mail.com!<br> > Choose =46rom 200+ Email Addresses<br> > Get a Free Account at <a = href=3D"http://www.mail.com">www.mail.com</a>!<br> <br> <br> <br> --<br> -------------------------------------------------------------------<br> Albert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor<br> Psychology Department, McGill University<br> 1205 Docteur Penfield Avenue<br> Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1.<br> Office: Phone: (514) 398-6103<br> Fax: (514) 398-4896<br> Residence phone &amp; fax: (514) 484-2592<br> <a href=3D"http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html"><a = href=3D"http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html">www.psych.mcgi= ll.ca/labs/auditory/Home.html</a></a><br> -------------------------------------------------------------------<br> </smithd@xxxxxxxx></al.bregman@xxxxxxxx></blockquote> </div> <br> --=20 <div> Be Yourself @xxxxxxxx mail.com!<br> Choose =46rom 200+ Email Addresses<br> Get a <b>Free</b> Account at <a href=3D"http://www.mail.com/Product.aspx" = target=3D"_blank"><a = href=3D"http://www.mail.com">www.mail.com</a></a>!</div> </div></blockquote></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-3-20994813--


This message came from the mail archive
http://www.auditory.org/postings/2009/
maintained by:
DAn Ellis <dpwe@ee.columbia.edu>
Electrical Engineering Dept., Columbia University