Re: Frequency to Mel Formula (Diana Deutsch )


Subject: Re: Frequency to Mel Formula
From:    Diana Deutsch  <ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx>
Date:    Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:25:16 -0700
List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>

--Apple-Mail-20-1776784 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Dick, Martin, and others, I agree strongly that octave equivalence and the circular dimension =20 needs to be taken into account in any definition of pitch, and that =20 Stevens' 'halving' procedure never made sense. The definition of pitch =20= by the American National Standards Institute as "that attribute of =20 auditory sensation in terms of which sounds may be ordered on a scale =20= extending from high to low" - which implicitly denies the circular =20 component - is simply mistaken, and should be amended. For a study demonstrating pitch circularity in tones that constitute a =20= full harmonic series, please see: Deutsch, D., Dooley, K., and Henthorn, T. Pitch circularity from tones =20= comprising full harmonic series. Journal of the Acoustical Society of =20= America, 2008, 124, 589-597.[PDF Document] [Web Link] Cheers, Diana Professor Diana Deutsch Department of Psychology University of California, San Diego 9500 Gilman Dr. #0109 La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA 858-453-1558 (tel) 858-453-4763 (fax) http://deutsch.ucsd.edu On Jul 29, 2009, at 4:45 AM, Martin Braun wrote: > Dear Dick Warren, and others, > > thanks a lot for the detailed information on the psychological =20 > construct of "half-pitch" and its relation to the octave. > > Perhaps it is useful to recall that asking a subject to find a "half-=20= > pitch" is something categorically different from asking for a "half-=20= > loudness" or a "half-brightness". As Dick Warren pointed out =20 > correctly, the pitch scale is already scaled by the octave phenomenon. > > It is interesting that already Helmholtz saw the universality of the =20= > octave, while many later scholars seem to have missed it. Today we =20 > have plenty of further information about the octave that was =20 > unavailable in the days of Stevens. > > We have multiple evidence for a general subconscious octave-based =20 > internal chroma map: > > http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/eng6.htm > > and we have multiple evidence that octave circularity is hardwired =20 > in the auditory thalamus: > > http://web.telia.com/~u57011259/eng7.htm > > So today it may no longer be useful to use the construct of "half-=20 > pitch" at all. It may be more promising to work with the physical =20 > scale of half-frequency steps and then to observe how perfect it =20 > matches the physiological octave scale, in particular on its fringes. > > Martin > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Martin Braun > Neuroscience of Music > S-671 95 Kl=E4ssbol > Sweden > web site: http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/index.htm > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard M. Warren" = <rmwarren@xxxxxxxx=20 > > > To: <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:45 PM > Subject: Re: Frequency to Mel Formula --Apple-Mail-20-1776784 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Dick, Martin, and = others,<div><br></div><div>I agree strongly that octave equivalence and = the circular dimension &nbsp;needs to be taken into account in any = definition of pitch, and that Stevens' 'halving' procedure never made = sense. The definition of pitch by the&nbsp;American National Standards = Institute&nbsp;&nbsp;as "that attribute of auditory sensation in terms = of which sounds may be ordered on a scale extending from high to low" - = which implicitly denies the circular component - &nbsp;is simply = mistaken, and should be amended.</div><div><br></div><div>For a study = demonstrating pitch circularity in tones that constitute a full harmonic = series, please see:</div><div><br></div><div><font = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12px; ">Deutsch, D., = Dooley, K., and Henthorn, T. Pitch circularity from tones comprising = full harmonic series.&nbsp;<i>Journal of the Acoustical Society of = America</i>, 2008, 124, 589-597.<nobr>[<a = href=3D"http://philomel.com/pdf/JASA-2008_124_589-597.pdf" = target=3D"_blank">PDF Document</a>]</nobr>&nbsp;<nobr>[<a = href=3D"http://scitation.aip.org/vsearch/servlet/VerityServlet?KEY=3DASADL= &amp;smode=3Dstrresults&amp;sort=3Drel&amp;maxdisp=3D25&amp;threshold=3D0&= amp;pjournals=3DARLOFJ%2CJASMAN%2CNOCOAN%2CSOUCAU%2CPMARCW%2CATCODK%2CASAS= TR&amp;possible1=3Dhenthorn&amp;possible1zone=3Darticle&amp;OUTLOG=3DNO&am= p;viewabs=3DJASMAN&amp;key=3DDISPLAY&amp;docID=3D1&amp;page=3D0&amp;chapte= r=3D0" target=3D"_blank">Web = Link</a>]</nobr><br></span></font></div><div><font = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"white-space: = nowrap;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"white-space: nowrap;">Cheers,</span></font></div><div><font = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"white-space: = nowrap;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"white-space: nowrap;">Diana</span></font></div><div><font = class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"white-space: = nowrap;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"white-space: = nowrap;"><br></span></font></div><div><div><div><span = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 12px; "><div>Professor = Diana Deutsch</div><div>Department of Psychology&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = &nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>University of California, San = Diego</div><div>9500 Gilman Dr. #0109&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = &nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA</div><div><br = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div>858-453-1558 = (tel)</div><div>858-453-4763 (fax)</div><div><br = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div><a = href=3D"http://deutsch.ucsd.edu">http://deutsch.ucsd.edu</a></div></span><= /div><div><br></div><div>On Jul 29, 2009, at 4:45 AM, Martin Braun = wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><div>Dear Dick Warren, and others,<br><br>thanks a lot for = the detailed information on the psychological construct of "half-pitch" = and its relation to the octave.<br><br>Perhaps it is useful to recall = that asking a subject to find a "half-pitch" is something categorically = different from asking for a "half-loudness" or a "half-brightness". As = Dick Warren pointed out correctly, the pitch scale is already scaled by = the octave phenomenon.<br><br>It is interesting that already Helmholtz = saw the universality of the octave, while many later scholars seem to = have missed it. Today we have plenty of further information about the = octave that was unavailable in the days of Stevens.<br><br>We have = multiple evidence for a general subconscious octave-based internal = chroma map:<br><br><a = href=3D"http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/eng6.htm">http://w1.570.telia.c= om/~u57011259/eng6.htm</a><br><br>and we have multiple evidence that = octave circularity is hardwired in the auditory = thalamus:<br><br>http://web.telia.com/~u57011259/eng7.htm<br><br>So = today it may no longer be useful to use the construct of "half-pitch" at = all. It may be more promising to work with the physical scale of = half-frequency steps and then to observe how perfect it matches the = physiological octave scale, in particular on its = fringes.<br><br>Martin<br><br>--------------------------------------------= -------------------------<br>Martin Braun<br>Neuroscience of = Music<br>S-671 95 Kl=E4ssbol<br>Sweden<br>web site: = http://w1.570.telia.com/~u57011259/index.htm<br><br><br><br><br>----- = Original Message ----- From: "Richard M. Warren" = &lt;rmwarren@xxxxxxxx&gt;<br>To: = &lt;AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx&gt;<br>Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:45 = PM<br>Subject: Re: Frequency to Mel Formula = <br></div></blockquote></div><br></div><br><font = class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-size: 12px;"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-size: medium;"><br></span></span></font><div = apple-content-edited=3D"true"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: = rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: = normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: = normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; = -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: = rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: = normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: = normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; = -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; = -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div><br = class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span></div></span> = </div><br></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-20-1776784--


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