Subject: Re: Perception as memory From: Eric LePage <ericlepage@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 11:09:20 +0800 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>In reply to your message dated 26/08/2009 at 12:12 Hi all, I too am 64 and can score A+ with the UCSF score, but have been noticing half step errors in the naming of notes for the last year or two. I first read about this phenomenon a long time ago: Schelleng, J. C. Letter: Anomaly in pitch perception. J Acoust Soc Am. 1975 Jan; 57(1):249-50. His two page letter describes regional dislocations, first one half step (semitone), then two. Ever since reading this article I've been wondering whether as I aged I would experience the same phenomenon. Indeed I have. The first time was alarming - of the genre of remembering what you were doing when you heard that JFK had been assassinated. I was listening to an organ work which I knew well while visiting St. Sulpice in Paris. I thought that I'm either going crazy or the organ is tuned sharp (always possible). It was like the weirdness of experiencing one's first earth-tremor - one's sense of absolute security is shattered, i.e. At first I was just as sure I was assigning the tags correctly, only to realise I was not. What it has done is to challenge my ideas about mechanisms in AP. 1) I realise it is now episodic -- it comes and goes and I think it tends to be tied to how recently active I have been as a musician. 2) Other times it takes a second or two to 'recalibrate', after which security is restored. It is indeed possible to recalibrate by imagining where a C (~1kHz) or A(440) should be. (Bill Siegel once was surprised that I could do this with accuracy, despite otherwise displaying categorical perception). 3) The really alarming thing is that the sense of certainty is not lost, so this says that categorisation is taking place centrally, where as the wandering of the grid suggests cochlear involvement, e.g. loss of basilar membrane stiffness with aging. Eric LePage Perth, Australia > There are 3 messages totalling 513 lines in this issue. > Topics of the day: > 1. Perception as memory ... (2) > 2. Perception as memory > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:44:38 +0200 > From: Leon van Noorden <leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: Perception as memory ... > Hi Diana, > my absolute labeling of notes has definitely gone up one step (a "do" > sounds rather more like a "re"). I am 64 now. > I have noticed this already quite some years now. 10 or 20 years. > But I can shift my grid now quite easily. Something I could absolutely > not do at younger age, say the first 20 years of my life. > In the kind of experimental music I have been doing all my life and > still do, in a small music group, I had to get rid of any standard > tonal reference system. Only the sound counts. > Regards, > Leon > On 25 Aug 2009, at 02:16, Diana Deutsch wrote: > > Hi Kevin, > > > > I hadn't heard that anecdote about Benjamin Britten beginning to > > name notes flat - that's very interesting. Many people say that > > AP'ers begin to make errors in the sharp direction, but that's not > > been my experience - it seems to me that there's a lot of individual > > variation here. If by chance you know of a printed source about the > > Benjamin Britten story, I'd be grateful to hear about it. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Diana > > > > > > > > On Aug 24, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Kevin Austin wrote: > > > >> Thanks Diana > >> > >> I am seldom serious about anything I say; life is too short to be > >> taken seriously, and too serious to be taken lightly. > >> > >> My reference point, as I noted, [ ... My experience with some > >> others with absolute pitch has been that they don't "hear" chords. > >> One person told me that she did tonal harmonic analysis not by > >> hearing the chord and its function, but by hearing the notes and > >> doing a rapid [reverse engineering] analysis.... ] was four people > >> with whom I have had this discussion. I did not reference "people > >> with absolute pitch". > >> > >> From the discussions with these four (and a few others), I am > >> considering that those with absolute pitch occupy a different > >> perceptual universe than the one I live in. Regrettably, I may have > >> tried to oversimplify the description. On occasion, special > >> occasions, I ask the following question: "At the end of the second > >> movement of the Beethoven Eighth Symphony, do you hear that the > >> cadence, as a full-close cadence, is successful?" I do not hear it > >> thus; I hear the Ab which occurs just before the end, even though > >> it is 'canceled' by a following A, as shifting the tonal center > >> from Bb to Eb. Over the years, three of my colleagues who have > >> taught music theory have then told me that they ... actually don't > >> hear tonally. This is another thread for another list. > >> > >> The individual with enough theory and absolute pitch then told me > >> that s/he 'really couldn't tell' whether the key had changed, but > >> the score indicates that it hadn't. I don't know what to make of > >> these anecdotes. > >> > >> In one conversation about transposition and absolute pitch, two > >> pieces of information came out. The famous one about Britten's > >> 'slipped' pitch, where C major in his later life mapped out as B > >> major, and the other that compared transposition to being like > >> reading in different fonts, but this didn't make sense to me so I > >> have not told anyone about it. > >> > >> I am not AP. > >> > >> > >> ?? > >> > >> Best > >> > >> Kevin > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2009, Aug 24, at 4:23 PM, Diana Deutsch wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Dear Kevin, > >>> > >>> You can't be serious in saying that people with absolute pitch > >>> don't 'hear' chords. It's true that we can pick out the names of > >>> notes within a chord in addition to hearing it, but of course we > >>> perceive pitch relationships at the same time. > >>> > >>> I quote from Arthur Rubenstein's autobiography: 'My young years', > >>> in which he describes an interview he had with the great > >>> Professor Joachim when he was about four years old: > >>> > >>> 'First he asked me to call out the notes of many tricky chords he > >>> struck on the piano, and then I had to prove my perfect ear in > >>> other ways. And finally, I remember, he made me play back the > >>> beautiful second theme of Schubert's Unfinished Symphony after he > >>> had hummed it. I had to find the right harmonies, and later > >>> transpose the tune into another tonality'. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> > >>> Diana > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Professor Diana Deutsch > >>> Department of Psychology > >>> University of California, San Diego > >>> 9500 Gilman Dr. #0109 > >>> La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA > >>> > >>> 858-453-1558 (tel) > >>> 858-453-4763 (fax) > >>> > >>> http://deutsch.ucsd.edu > >>> http://www.philomel.com > >>> > >>> > >>> On Aug 24, 2009, at 7:05 AM, Kevin Austin wrote: > >>> > >>>> Thanks for the reply. > >>>> > >>>> My experience is that perception is unique and individual -- > >>>> statistical in nature. > >>>> > >>>> The training example is interesting. What I didn't mention is > >>>> that in three cases I 'tested', synesthetes, all three with > >>>> absolute pitch and absolute color, they did not have the > >>>> sensation of integration of the 10-note chord. They simple named > >>>> the 10 notes in ascending order on hearing the sound for under a > >>>> second. My experience with some others with absolute pitch has > >>>> been that they don't "hear" chords. One person told me that she > >>>> did tonal harmonic analysis not by hearing the chord and its > >>>> function, but by hearing the notes and doing a rapid [reverse > >>>> engineering] analysis. All three chose to be in the visual arts > >>>> and keep music as a hobby. > >>>> > >>>> One of the three prepared a 10 meter-long score of the first > >>>> movement of the Bartok Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste, > >>>> in graph form, by ear. Each pitch class was represented by a > >>>> different color (her color <-> pitch-class mapping). She reported > >>>> difficulty in only one place, in the lead-up to the central > >>>> (octave) unison, where certain inner voices appeared in the wrong > >>>> octave. I think this had to do with the quality of the recording > >>>> she was working from, and the (low) quality headphones she used. > >>>> She did this all with relative ease and I realized (again) how > >>>> dwarfish my own hearing is in such an environment. > >>>> > >>>> At some point in this on-going discussion, there may be a topic > >>>> on continuous and quantized time. Another time maybe. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Best > >>>> > >>>> Kevin > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > ------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:52:45 -0700 > From: Diana Deutsch <ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: Perception as memory ... > Hi Leon, > Interesting! Jane Gitschier and her group at UCSF did a web study from > which they concluded (as did others anecdotally before them) that AP > labeling of notes tends to move in the upward direction with age, but > in my recollection this claim wasn't accompanied by a test of > statistical significance. I found that I was beginning to make > semitone errors in either direction, but recently with some practice > have been able largely to overcome this. I'm thinking that perhaps the > basic alteration is peripheral in origin, but that one can compensate > for it by readjusting ones categories centrally. > Regards, > Diana > On Aug 25, 2009, at 12:44 AM, Leon van Noorden wrote: > > Hi Diana, > > my absolute labeling of notes has definitely gone up one step (a > > "do" sounds rather more like a "re"). I am 64 now. > > I have noticed this already quite some years now. 10 or 20 years. > > But I can shift my grid now quite easily. Something I could > > absolutely not do at younger age, say the first 20 years of my life. > > In the kind of experimental music I have been doing all my life and > > still do, in a small music group, I had to get rid of any standard > > tonal reference system. Only the sound counts. > > Regards, > > Leon > > > > On 25 Aug 2009, at 02:16, Diana Deutsch wrote: > > > >> Hi Kevin, > >> > >> I hadn't heard that anecdote about Benjamin Britten beginning to > >> name notes flat - that's very interesting. Many people say that > >> AP'ers begin to make errors in the sharp direction, but that's not > >> been my experience - it seems to me that there's a lot of > >> individual variation here. If by chance you know of a printed > >> source about the Benjamin Britten story, I'd be grateful to hear > >> about it. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Diana > >> > >> > >> > >> On Aug 24, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Kevin Austin wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks Diana > >>> > >>> I am seldom serious about anything I say; life is too short to be > >>> taken seriously, and too serious to be taken lightly. > >>> > >>> My reference point, as I noted, [ ... My experience with some > >>> others with absolute pitch has been that they don't "hear" chords. > >>> One person told me that she did tonal harmonic analysis not by > >>> hearing the chord and its function, but by hearing the notes and > >>> doing a rapid [reverse engineering] analysis.... ] was four people > >>> with whom I have had this discussion. I did not reference "people > >>> with absolute pitch". > >>> > >>> From the discussions with these four (and a few others), I am > >>> considering that those with absolute pitch occupy a different > >>> perceptual universe than the one I live in. Regrettably, I may > >>> have tried to oversimplify the description. On occasion, special > >>> occasions, I ask the following question: "At the end of the second > >>> movement of the Beethoven Eighth Symphony, do you hear that the > >>> cadence, as a full-close cadence, is successful?" I do not hear it > >>> thus; I hear the Ab which occurs just before the end, even though > >>> it is 'canceled' by a following A, as shifting the tonal center > >>> from Bb to Eb. Over the years, three of my colleagues who have > >>> taught music theory have then told me that they ... actually don't > >>> hear tonally. This is another thread for another list. > >>> > >>> The individual with enough theory and absolute pitch then told me > >>> that s/he 'really couldn't tell' whether the key had changed, but > >>> the score indicates that it hadn't. I don't know what to make of > >>> these anecdotes. > >>> > >>> In one conversation about transposition and absolute pitch, two > >>> pieces of information came out. The famous one about Britten's > >>> 'slipped' pitch, where C major in his later life mapped out as B > >>> major, and the other that compared transposition to being like > >>> reading in different fonts, but this didn't make sense to me so I > >>> have not told anyone about it. > >>> > >>> I am not AP. > >>> > >>> > >>> ?? > >>> > >>> Best > >>> > >>> Kevin > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 2009, Aug 24, at 4:23 PM, Diana Deutsch wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Dear Kevin, > >>>> > >>>> You can't be serious in saying that people with absolute pitch > >>>> don't 'hear' chords. It's true that we can pick out the names of > >>>> notes within a chord in addition to hearing it, but of course we > >>>> perceive pitch relationships at the same time. > >>>> > >>>> I quote from Arthur Rubenstein's autobiography: 'My young years', > >>>> in which he describes an interview he had with the great > >>>> Professor Joachim when he was about four years old: > >>>> > >>>> 'First he asked me to call out the notes of many tricky chords he > >>>> struck on the piano, and then I had to prove my perfect ear in > >>>> other ways. And finally, I remember, he made me play back the > >>>> beautiful second theme of Schubert's Unfinished Symphony after he > >>>> had hummed it. I had to find the right harmonies, and later > >>>> transpose the tune into another tonality'. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> > >>>> Diana > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Professor Diana Deutsch > >>>> Department of Psychology > >>>> University of California, San Diego > >>>> 9500 Gilman Dr. #0109 > >>>> La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA > >>>> > >>>> 858-453-1558 (tel) > >>>> 858-453-4763 (fax) > >>>> > >>>> http://deutsch.ucsd.edu > >>>> http://www.philomel.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Aug 24, 2009, at 7:05 AM, Kevin Austin wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Thanks for the reply. > >>>>> > >>>>> My experience is that perception is unique and individual -- > >>>>> statistical in nature. > >>>>> > >>>>> The training example is interesting. What I didn't mention is > >>>>> that in three cases I 'tested', synesthetes, all three with > >>>>> absolute pitch and absolute color, they did not have the > >>>>> sensation of integration of the 10-note chord. They simple named > >>>>> the 10 notes in ascending order on hearing the sound for under a > >>>>> second. My experience with some others with absolute pitch has > >>>>> been that they don't "hear" chords. One person told me that she > >>>>> did tonal harmonic analysis not by hearing the chord and its > >>>>> function, but by hearing the notes and doing a rapid [reverse > >>>>> engineering] analysis. All three chose to be in the visual arts > >>>>> and keep music as a hobby. > >>>>> > >>>>> One of the three prepared a 10 meter-long score of the first > >>>>> movement of the Bartok Music for Strings, Percussion and > >>>>> Celeste, in graph form, by ear. Each pitch class was represented > >>>>> by a different color (her color <-> pitch-class mapping). She > >>>>> reported difficulty in only one place, in the lead-up to the > >>>>> central (octave) unison, where certain inner voices appeared in > >>>>> the wrong octave. I think this had to do with the quality of the > >>>>> recording she was working from, and the (low) quality headphones > >>>>> she used. She did this all with relative ease and I realized > >>>>> (again) how dwarfish my own hearing is in such an environment. > >>>>> > >>>>> At some point in this on-going discussion, there may be a topic > >>>>> on continuous and quantized time. Another time maybe. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Best > >>>>> > >>>>> Kevin > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:35:11 -0500 > From: "Richard M. Warren" <rmwarren@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: Perception as memory > --Apple-Mail-14-194888891 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=WINDOWS-1252; > format=flowed; > delsp=yes > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Kevin Austin has started this thread with his 8/23 posting describing =20= > how it is possible to teach many of his listeners to hear out the note =20= > =93D=94 in a 10-item chord by presenting the note in isolation as well = > as =20 > a component in the intact chord. He interpreted his observations as =20 > representing both a refinement of memory and an improvement of =20 > perceptual ability. He asked whether listeners would be able to do =20 > this with other sounds. > If Kevin means to ask if listeners can use memory to separate a sound =20= > into components, the answer is yes. For example, if listeners are =20 > presented with a 1/3-octave band of noise for a few seconds followed =20 > by broadband noise they can =93hear=94 the narrow band noise continue as = > a =20 > component for tens of seconds. A linguistic example of the use of =20 > long-established memory to =93hear out=94 sounds in noise is afforded by = > =20 > phonemic restoration in which listeners =93perceive=94 missing phonemes = > or =20 > even entire syllables (e.g., the =93gis=94 in legislatures) that have = > been =20 > replaced by noise. Our lab has studied the use of memory to =93hear=94 =20= > contextually appropriate sounds by segregating portions of another =20 > sound using the rubric =93auditory induction.=94 > Dick > =93Without the senses there is no memory, and without memory there is no = > =20 > mind.=94 > -Voltaire in his short essay =93Memory=92s Adventure=94 > Richard M. Warren > Research Professor > and Distinguished Professor Emeritus > Department of Psychology > University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee > PO Box 413 > Milwaukee, WI 53201 > --Apple-Mail-14-194888891 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset=WINDOWS-1252 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > <html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = > -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: = > break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = > after-white-space; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" = > style=3D"text-align: left;">Kevin Austin has started this thread with = > his 8/23 posting describing how it is possible to teach many of his = > listeners to hear out the note =93D=94 in a 10-item chord by presenting = > the note in isolation as well as a component in the intact chord.<span = > style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>He interpreted his = > observations as representing both a refinement of memory and an = > improvement of perceptual ability.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: = > yes"> </span>He asked whether listeners would be able to do this = > with other sounds.</p><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></div> <div = > class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align: left;">If Kevin means to ask if = > listeners can use memory to separate a sound into components, the answer = > is yes.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>For example, if = > listeners are presented with a 1/3-octave band of noise for a few = > seconds followed by broadband noise they can =93hear=94 the narrow band = > noise continue as a component for tens of seconds.<span = > style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>A linguistic example of the = > use of long-established memory to =93hear out=94 sounds in noise is = > afforded by phonemic restoration in which listeners =93perceive=94 = > missing phonemes or even entire syllables (e.g., the =93gis=94 in = > legislatures) that have been replaced by noise.<span = > style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Our lab has studied the use of = > memory to =93hear=94 contextually appropriate sounds by segregating = > portions of another sound using the rubric =93auditory = > induction.=94</div><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></div> <div = > class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></div> <div = > class=3D"MsoNormal">Dick </div><div = > class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></div> <div class=3D"MsoNormal"><font = > class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = > style=3D"font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div = > class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=93Without the = > senses there is no memory, and without memory there is no = > mind.=94<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = > style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><span style=3D"mso-spacerun: = > yes"> &nb= > sp; </span>-Voltaire in his short essay =93Memory=92s = > Adventure=94<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div = > class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></div> <!--EndFragment--> = > <br><br><div> <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: = > separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; = > font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = > letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: = > auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = > widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = > -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = > -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = > auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = > style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = > Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = > font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; = > orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = > widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = > -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = > -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = > auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: = > break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = > after-white-space; "><div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" = > size=3D"4"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 14px; = > "><b><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">Richard M. = > Warren</b></span></font> </div><div>Research = > Professor </div><div> and Distinguished Professor = > Emeritus</div><div>Department of Psychology</div><div>University of = > Wisconsin-Milwaukee</div><div>PO Box 413</div><div>Milwaukee, WI = > 53201</div></div><div><br = > class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></span><br = > class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br = > class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> = > </div><br></div></div><br></body></html>= > --Apple-Mail-14-194888891-- > ------------------------------ > End of AUDITORY Digest - 24 Aug 2009 to 25 Aug 2009 (#2009-195) > ***************************************************************