Subject: Re: pulse / beat / meter etc From: Bruno Repp <repp@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:21:36 -0500 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>Dear Leon: You are right, perhaps I should not have called the "hearing out" of partials of a complex tone "streaming." However, when two Shepard tones spanning a tritone interval are presented in succession (in the "tritone paradox"), listeners (especially musicians) often report hearing two simultaneous pitch changes in opposite directions. This means they hear one octave partial going up by a tritone and another partial going down a tritone. This seems very similar to streaming to me. By extension, even when no conflicting pitch changes are perceived, a listener may still hear separate partials changing pitch in the same direction. By contrast, when I listen to these tones, I always hear a clear pitch change up or down and never conflicting changes in partials, of which I am not strongly aware. For me and other "synthetic listeners," successive Shepard tones form a single pitch stream, as it were. For those interested in Shepard tones and the tritone paradox, I have a new article just out: Repp, B. H., & Thompson, J. M. (in press). Context sensitivity and invariance in perception of octave-ambiguous tones. /Psychological Research. /DOI 10.1007/s00426-009-0264-9 Best, Bruno Leon van Noorden wrote: > Dear Bruno, > > I do not understand the use of the term streaming here. For me it is > the integration of successive tones in a coherent melodic line. Here > you and Kevin are talking about hearing a complex tone as a single > complex entity or a bunch of harmonics with octave relations. What do > you mean by streaming here? is it the integration of the complex in a > single percept or the singling out of the separate harmonics. I am not > happy with neither of these meanings. > > Best, > Leon > > > On 09 Dec 2009, at 16:23, Bruno Repp wrote: > >> Dear Kevin: >> >> Let me assure you that you CAN stream the multiple octaves in a >> Shepard tone; in fact, this is what most musicians do. They are >> "analytic listeners", unlike myself for example, who just hears >> (mainly) a single pitch. However, even if you stream the octaves, you >> should hear any particular stream as continuously descending as long >> as you hang on to it. If you switch attention to another stream >> because you want to focus on a particular octave, then of course the >> descent will be interrupted and reset. The point of Madison's >> illusion seems to be that listeners hang on to a chosen beat level >> for a long time, even when the beat becomes unreasonably slow (or >> fast). However, it is unclear how obligatory this tendency is, and >> how aware participants are of the continuous change in beat rate. The >> willingness to switch from one beat level to another could probably >> be manipulated through instructions. >> >> Best, >> Bruno >> >> >> Kevin Austin wrote: >>> Hmm .. I do not consider this to be an illusion. In my first theory >>> class I will have six students in front of the class 'beating time' >>> to a (simple) Sousa march. >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvWLMkxSwIo&feature=related The >>> demonstration is that the division of time (also called rhythm) is >>> multi-dimensional. Underlying patterns / structures are (in western >>> music) found from the levels of pulse, beat-subdivision (grouped >>> pulses), beat (grouped beat-subdivisions), meter (patterned beats), >>> phrase sub-division (collections of metric units), phrase (multiples >>> of phrase sub-divisions), phrase groups ... >>> In western music, around these frameworks, there are rhythmic >>> elements (melody, accompaniment, figurations etc). >>> >>> Continuous acceleration / deceleration can be found in the Carter >>> String Quartet No 2 (1959), >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC6qTmsAnQI&feature=related and in >>> other pieces after that date. The idea of pulse acceleration is also >>> explored in Kontakte by Stockhausen. >>> >>> Drummers (and organists) are well-acquainted with this >>> multi-dimemsional aspect of the articulation(s) of time (rhythm) as >>> they will often have to provide two or more levels of the metric >>> structure. Conductors train to be able to move their arms at >>> different tempi (up to about 3:4), and also to count different >>> numbers of beats with each arm (3 beats in the left hand and 4 beats >>> with the right). >>> >>> Regarding the Risset, and shepard tones, I do not hear continuous >>> descent as I tend not to integrate the tone but stream the multiple >>> octaves, something I am told I cannot do. >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUNjbNK5Giw&feature=related >>> >>> For the beat and other 'illusions' : >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6JSTkwXg90&feature=related >>> This site is based upon the belief that an external reality exists. >>> IMV. >>> >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 20:17:38 +0100 >>>> From: Leon van Noorden <leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx> >>>> Subject: auditory illusion >>>> >>>> Dear list, >>>> >>>> For those who are looking for a compelling auditory illusion I can >>>> recommend the article by Guy Madison on seemingly perpetually >>>> slowing down or speeding up rhythmic patterns. >>>> >>>> The freely accessible paper is located at: >>>> http://dx.plos.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0008151 >>>> >>>> Leon van Noorden >>>> >> >> >> -- >> Bruno H. Repp >> Haskins Laboratories 300 George Street >> New Haven, CT 06511-6624 >> Tel. (203) 865-6163, ext. 236 >> Fax (203) 865-8963 >> http://www.haskins.yale.edu/staff/repp.html -- Bruno H. Repp Haskins Laboratories 300 George Street New Haven, CT 06511-6624 Tel. (203) 865-6163, ext. 236 Fax (203) 865-8963 http://www.haskins.yale.edu/staff/repp.html