Subject: sheperd tones and streaming From: Kevin Austin <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:09:41 -0500 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>Thanks. It seems we use the same word to have different meanings. My use of the terms are as follows: segregation: in a "single sound", hearing elements / components, such as hearing five partials within a low CC played on a piano integration: in a "single sound", hearing the elements / components fused together, such as hearing a sawtooth wave as a "single sound" What you call "integration of successive tones", I now call "streaming", a term I learned originally as channelization in the 1970s, in a book on auditory perception, translated from the german as I recall. Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_scene_analysis In the way I use the terms, integration and segregation are (quasi)non-time based; streaming is the time-based linking together of segregated elements. (One of the characteristics of the elements I 'segregate' is that they can be moved in time independently.) Western music theory could be seen as having two basic 'forms' -- integration (called harmony), and segregation followed by streaming, called melody and counterpoint. Kevin > Leon van Noorden wrote: >> Dear Bruno, >> >> I do not understand the use of the term streaming here. For me it is the integration of successive tones in a coherent melodic line. Here you and Kevin are talking about hearing a complex tone as a single complex entity or a bunch of harmonics with octave relations. What do you mean by streaming here? is it the integration of the complex in a single percept or the singling out of the separate harmonics. I am not happy with neither of these meanings. >> >> Best, >> Leon > Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:21:36 -0500 > From: Bruno Repp <repp@xxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: pulse / beat / meter etc > > Dear Leon: > > You are right, perhaps I should not have called the "hearing out" of > partials of a complex tone "streaming." However, when two Shepard tones > spanning a tritone interval are presented in succession (in the "tritone > paradox"), listeners (especially musicians) often report hearing two > simultaneous pitch changes in opposite directions. This means they hear > one octave partial going up by a tritone and another partial going down > a tritone. This seems very similar to streaming to me. By extension, > even when no conflicting pitch changes are perceived, a listener may > still hear separate partials changing pitch in the same direction. By > contrast, when I listen to these tones, I always hear a clear pitch > change up or down and never conflicting changes in partials, of which I > am not strongly aware. For me and other "synthetic listeners," > successive Shepard tones form a single pitch stream, as it were. > > For those interested in Shepard tones and the tritone paradox, I have a > new article just out: > > Repp, B. H., & Thompson, J. M. (in press). Context sensitivity and > invariance in perception of octave-ambiguous tones. /Psychological > Research. /DOI 10.1007/s00426-009-0264-9 > > Best, > Bruno > >> >> >> On 09 Dec 2009, at 16:23, Bruno Repp wrote: >> >>> Dear Kevin: >>> >>> Let me assure you that you CAN stream the multiple octaves in a >>> Shepard tone; in fact, this is what most musicians do. They are >>> "analytic listeners", unlike myself for example, who just hears >>> (mainly) a single pitch. However, even if you stream the octaves, you >>> should hear any particular stream as continuously descending as long >>> as you hang on to it. If you switch attention to another stream >>> because you want to focus on a particular octave, then of course the >>> descent will be interrupted and reset. The point of Madison's >>> illusion seems to be that listeners hang on to a chosen beat level >>> for a long time, even when the beat becomes unreasonably slow (or >>> fast). However, it is unclear how obligatory this tendency is, and >>> how aware participants are of the continuous change in beat rate. The >>> willingness to switch from one beat level to another could probably >>> be manipulated through instructions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> Kevin Austin wrote: >>>> ... >>>> Regarding the Risset, and shepard tones, I do not hear continuous >>>> descent as I tend not to integrate the tone but stream the multiple >>>> octaves, something I am told I cannot do. >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUNjbNK5Giw&feature=related >>>> >>>> For the beat and other 'illusions' : >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6JSTkwXg90&feature=related >>>> This site is based upon the belief that an external reality exists. >>>> IMV. >>>> >>>> >>>> Kevin >