Subject: Re : [AUDITORY] Re : Topics for discussion From: =?utf-8?B?ZnLDqWTDqXJpYyBtYWludGVuYW50?= <fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:47:24 +0000 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--0-983569126-1268837244=:49958 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Yi Yu and dear list,=0A=0AThank you for the link to SoSoMir that I did= not know. Personally I =0Arather go to MusiSorbonne for music discussion o= r Music-Ir (Ircam list). =0ANo my question (which was underlied in my last= message) addresses fondamentaly =0Athe modern definition of timbre which,= in term of Maths, is not a =0Adefinition but a theorem. Discrimination of = timbre is only partly linked to pitch, and there are many musical example t= hat would make the =0A"official" definition in difficulty. I know that Mr B= regman advocate not to use the term timbre, but unfortunatly, I believe it = is difficult to =0Aavoid using it.=0AI recall that if most psycho-acoustic= experiments on timbre =0Adifferentiation suppose that the pitch of the sou= nds tested are the =0Asame; however in the following paper three tones [B3 = (247 Hz), C#4 (277 =0AHz) and Bb4 (466 Hz)] were used : Jeremy Marozeau, Al= ain de Cheveigne=CC=81, =0AStephen McAdams and Suzanne Winsberg, The depend= ency of timbre on =0Afundemental frequency, JASA 114-5, 2003 pp.2946-2957.= =0AFurther more Alain de Cheveign=C3=A9 has put forward in another paper , = The =0Aauditory system as a separation machine, In: Physiological and =0APs= ychological Bass of Auditory Fuction, Shaker 2000 pp. 453-460 that to =0Ano= t being able to seperate sounds is still a major problem for all of =0Aour = existing mechanical recording systems. I believe, and I showed it =0Asomeho= w in my paper, Controlling spectral harmony with Kohonen maps, =0ACognitive= Processing vol.4 (2003), Springer-Verlag, that one of the =0Amajor problem= s we are having is that we chose the frequency as the first axis in our rep= resentation of sounds. In Maths the first axis has a =0Avery different sign= ification than the second axis which is reserved for =0Athe image. It would= mean that starting from a frequency we obtain an =0Aenergy which is absurd= but practical for representation. Chosing energy =0A(or amplitude) as the = first axis is problematic and not easy to handle =0Aas I showed in my paper= , but it has the advantage to represent sound as =0Awe hear them (or gettin= g closer to), that is that we are capable of =0Adiscriminate timbre easely = regardless of frequency (it is a vital function) but not frequencies regarl= ess of timbre=0A(usually not a vital function: if we don't hear a car comin= g we can die, if the car break the pitch of the car goes up and give us an = important =0Ainformation, but still it is secondary; ie we need to discrimi= nate the =0Asound of the car whatever frequency the engine, breaks etc... a= re): I =0Amean also that in normal conditions, with very litlle cultural kn= owledge, we know if a sound comes from a flute or a violin, but we are not = capable to say =0Awhich note is being played (except for highly trained mus= icians who have actually a different brain configuration, I am talking of s= cans not of =0Ametaphorical implications).=0ASo my questions remain: how ca= n we have overlooked Rousseau's dictionary for so long, which leads to anot= her question: is our spectral =0Arepresentation really the good one, accord= ing that Fourier was not =0Aworking on sound but on heat. Epistemologically= speaking, I think that =0Awe are going progressively off the tracks since = the 80s, and that there =0Ais a demand that our brain is being configurated= to match how computer =0Ahears sounds. I'd like to be proved wrong.=0A=0AF= r=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric Maintenant=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________= ___________=0ADe : Yi Yu <yi.yu.yy@xxxxxxxx>=0A=C3=80 : AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA=0AEnvoy=C3=A9 le : Mer 17 mars 2010, 3 h 07 min 11 s=0AObjet : Re: R= e : Topics for =0Adiscussion=0A=0A=0ADear list=0A =0AThe prolonged discussi= on for music can be done effectively on =0ASoSoMir.net by creating a specia= l group. SoSoMIR.net is a professional =0Aweb site. The discussion result c= an be summarized and sent to the =0AAUDITORY list.=0A=0AAll the best =0A = =0Awww.SoSoMIR.net=0A =0AYi Yu=0A =0AOn 3/17/10, fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric mainten= ant <fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx> wrote: =0AThank you Mr Bregman for your comment!= =0A>=0A>I take =0A>the opportunity to ask again (I believe I did not use th= e proper mode of=0A> answering, since 4 or 5 years I haven't been much acti= ve on the list, =0A>being again more involved with music):=0A>>Does anybody= know or is aware of how Gunther Schuller composed his piece=0A> Spectra (1= 958), it seems that he used spectral analysis of sound, a =0A>method that w= ould be years ahead of his time. I am not only interested =0A>in the musica= l aspect of his composition but also in the potential =0A>scientific side: = did he use scientific knowledge? =0A>=0A>Rousseau, in his dictionary, wrot= e already very advance things =0A>concerning differential sounds, partials,= noise etc.; it seems that his =0A>most mature and official writing (ie the= dictionary) has been widely =0A>overlooked. Here's a paper by the Cornelia= Fales that put forward some =0A>of Rousseau's conception on sound and musi= c:=0A>=0A>Cornelia Fales (2005): Listening to timbre during the French =0A= >enlightment, =0A>=0A>it gives an excellent account of the epistemology =0A= >of the notion of timbre and can be read at:=0A>=0A>http://www.oiccm.umontr= eal.ca/doc/cim05/articles/fales_c_cim05.pdf=0A>=0A>I'd like to thank again = Mr Giordano to =0A>have share with us the 1973 Wessel's paper:=0A>=0A>http:= //www.music.mcgill.ca/~bruno/Wessel_1973.pdf=0A>=0A>It is a real gem! I not= iced that the orientation was much more =0A>musical than what can be read a= fterward, notably with the mention of =0A>Var=C3=A8se and Ligeti.=0A>=0A>Al= l the best,=0A>=0A>Fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric Maintenant=0A>Charg=C3=A9=0A> de cour= s =C3=A0 l'universit=C3=A9 Paul Val=C3=A9ry, Montpellier=0A>>Membre du grou= pe de recherche IDEAT/CNRS-Panth=C3=A9on-Sorbonne, Paris=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A____= ____________________________=0A De : Al Bregman <al.bregman@xxxxxxxx>=0A>= =C3=80 : AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx=0A>Envoy=C3=A9 le : Mar 16 mars =0A>2010,= 23 h 34 min 04 s=0A>Objet : > Topics for discussion=0A> =0A>=0A>Dear list,= =0A>=0A>I =0A>would like to remind everyone that the AUDITORY list members = come=0A>from=0A> a variety of disciplines including experimental psychology= ,=0A>linguistics=0A> (especially phonology), infant development, brain=0A>>= sciences, music and other sonic arts, audio technology, artificial=0A>intel= ligence,=0A> robotics, computer science, and speech and hearing=0A>science.= For the=0A> last little while, the postings seem to have focused=0A>heavi= ly on a =0A>rather technical and heated discussion of the mechanics=0A>>of = the cochlea. It is impressive to see the enthusiasm of researchers=0A>on= =0A> this topic, but I hope that other people will not be discouraged=0A>fr= om=0A> interrupting this discussion with questions, announcements, and=0A>m= essages=0A> on other topics.=0A>=0A>Perhaps it would be a good idea if, whe= n any group wishes to have a=0A>prolonged=0A> discussion of a highly specia= lized topic, they form a=0A>discussion =0A>group of interested parties. It= would then be of great=0A>interest for =0A>the list as a whole to be broug= ht up to date on the=0A>>thoughts, and maybe conclusions, of this specializ= ed group if any of=0A>its=0A> members were willing to take the trouble to w= rite up summaries=0A>from =0A>time to time.=0A>=0A>Best to all,=0A>=0A>Al= =0A>=0A>-------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------=0A>>Albert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor=0A>Psychology Departme= nt, McGill =0A>University=0A>1205 Docteur Penfield Avenue=0A>Montreal, QC, = Canada H3A =0A>1B1.=0A>Office: Phone: (514) 398-6103, Fax: (514) 398-4896= =0A>http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/Group2/abregm1/web/=0A>>---------------= --------------------------------------------------------------=0A>=0A> =0A= =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0ADe : Yi Yu <yi.yu.yy@xxxxxxxx= om>=0A=C3=80 : fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric maintenant <fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx>=0ACc : = AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx=0AEnvoy=C3=A9 le : Mer 17 mars 2010, 3 h 07 min 11= s=0AObjet : Re: [AUDITORY] Re : Topics for discussion=0A=0A=0ADear list=0A= =0AThe prolonged discussion for music can be done effectively on SoSoMir.n= et by creating a special group. SoSoMIR.net is a professional web site. The= discussion result can be summarized and sent to the AUDITORY list.=0A=0AAl= l the best =0A =0Awww.SoSoMIR.net=0A =0AYi Yu=0A =0AOn 3/17/10, fr=C3=A9d= =C3=A9ric maintenant <fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx> wrote: =0AThank you Mr Bregman = for your comment!=0A>=0A>I take the opportunity to ask again (I believe I d= id not use the proper mode of answering, since 4 or 5 years I haven't been = much active on the list, being again more involved with music):=0A>>Does an= ybody know or is aware of how Gunther Schuller composed his piece Spectra (= 1958), it seems that he used spectral analysis of sound, a method that woul= d be years ahead of his time. I am not only interested in the musical aspec= t of his composition but also in the potential scientific side: did he use = scientific knowledge? =0A>=0A>Rousseau, in his dictionary, wrote already v= ery advance things concerning differential sounds, partials, noise etc.; it= seems that his most mature and official writing (ie the dictionary) has be= en widely overlooked. Here's a paper by the Cornelia Fales that put forward= some of Rousseau's conception on sound and music:=0A>=0A>Cornelia Fales (2= 005): Listening to timbre during the French enlightment, =0A>=0A>it gives = an excellent account of the epistemology of the notion of timbre and can be= read at:=0A>=0A>http://www.oiccm.umontreal.ca/doc/cim05/articles/fales_c_c= im05.pdf=0A>=0A>I'd like to thank again Mr Giordano to have share with us t= he 1973 Wessel's paper:=0A>=0A>http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~bruno/Wessel_197= 3.pdf=0A>=0A>It is a real gem! I noticed that the orientation was much more= musical than what can be read afterward, notably with the mention of Var= =C3=A8se and Ligeti.=0A>=0A>All the best,=0A>=0A>Fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric Mainten= ant=0A>Charg=C3=A9 de cours =C3=A0 l'universit=C3=A9 Paul Val=C3=A9ry, Mont= pellier=0A>>Membre du groupe de recherche IDEAT/CNRS-Panth=C3=A9on-Sorbonne= , Paris=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A________________________________=0A De : Al Bregman <= al.bregman@xxxxxxxx>=0A>=C3=80 : AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx=0A>Envoy=C3=A9 l= e : Mar 16 mars 2010, 23 h 34 min 04 s=0A>Objet : Topics for discussion=0A>= =0A>=0A>Dear list,=0A>=0A>I would like to remind everyone that the AUDITOR= Y list members come=0A>from a variety of disciplines including experimental= psychology,=0A>linguistics (especially phonology), infant development, bra= in=0A>>sciences, music and other sonic arts, audio technology, artificial= =0A>intelligence, robotics, computer science, and speech and hearing=0A>sci= ence. For the last little while, the postings seem to have focused=0A>heav= ily on a rather technical and heated discussion of the mechanics=0A>>of the= cochlea. It is impressive to see the enthusiasm of researchers=0A>on this= topic, but I hope that other people will not be discouraged=0A>from interr= upting this discussion with questions, announcements, and=0A>messages on ot= her topics.=0A>=0A>Perhaps it would be a good idea if, when any group wishe= s to have a=0A>prolonged discussion of a highly specialized topic, they for= m a=0A>discussion group of interested parties. It would then be of great= =0A>interest for the list as a whole to be brought up to date on the=0A>>th= oughts, and maybe conclusions, of this specialized group if any of=0A>its m= embers were willing to take the trouble to write up summaries=0A>from time = to time.=0A>=0A>Best to all,=0A>=0A>Al=0A>=0A>-----------------------------= ------------------------------------------------=0A>>Albert S. Bregman, Eme= ritus Professor=0A>Psychology Department, McGill University=0A>1205 Docteur= Penfield Avenue=0A>Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1.=0A>Office: Phone: (514) = 398-6103, Fax: (514) 398-4896=0A>http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/Group2/abr= egm1/web/=0A>>-------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------=0A>=0A> =0A=0A=0A=0A --0-983569126-1268837244=:49958 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he= ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;fon= t-size:12pt"><div><div>Dear Yi Yu and dear list,<br>=0A<br>=0AThank you for= the link to SoSoMir that I did not know. Personally I =0Arather go to Musi= Sorbonne for music discussion or Music-Ir (Ircam list).=0A <br>=0ANo my que= stion (which was underlied in my last message) addresses fondamental= y =0Athe modern definition of timbre which, in term of Maths, is not a =0Ad= efinition but a theorem. Discrimination of timbre is only partly linked=0A = to pitch, and there are many musical example that would make the =0A"offici= al" definition in difficulty. I know that Mr Bregman advocate not=0A to use= the term timbre, but unfortunatly, I believe it is difficult to =0Aavoid u= sing it.<br>=0AI recall that if most psycho-acoustic experiments on t= imbre =0Adifferentiation suppose that the pitch of the sounds tested are th= e =0Asame; however in the following paper three tones [B3 (247 Hz), C#4 (27= 7 =0AHz) and Bb4 (466 Hz)] were used : Jeremy Marozeau, Alain de Cheveigne= =CC=81, =0AStephen McAdams and Suzanne Winsberg, The dependency of timbre o= n =0Afundemental frequency, JASA 114-5, 2003 pp.2946-2957.<br>=0AFurther mo= re Alain de Cheveign=C3=A9 has put forward in another paper , The =0Aaudito= ry system as a separation machine, In: Physiological and =0APsychological B= ass of Auditory Fuction, Shaker 2000 pp. 453-460 that to =0Anot being able = to seperate sounds is still a major problem for all of =0Aour existing mech= anical recording systems. I believe, and I showed it =0Asomehow in my paper= , Controlling spectral harmony with Kohonen maps, =0ACognitive Processing v= ol.4 (2003), Springer-Verlag, that one of the =0Amajor problems we are havi= ng is that we chose the frequency as the first=0A axis in our representatio= n of sounds. In Maths the first axis has a =0Avery different signification = than the second axis which is reserved for =0Athe image. It would mean that= starting from a frequency we obtain an =0Aenergy which is absurd but pract= ical for representation. Chosing energy =0A(or amplitude) as the first axis= is problematic and not easy to handle =0Aas I showed in my paper, but it h= as the advantage to represent sound as =0Awe hear them (or getting closer t= o), that is that we are capable of =0Adiscriminate timbre easely regardless= of frequency (it is a vital function) but not frequencies regarless of tim= bre=0A(usually not a vital function: if we don't hear a car coming we can d= ie,=0A if the car break the pitch of the car goes up and give us an importa= nt =0Ainformation, but still it is secondary; ie we need to discriminate th= e =0Asound of the car whatever frequency the engine, breaks etc... are): I = =0Amean also that in normal conditions, with very litlle cultural knowledge= , we know if=0A a sound comes from a flute or a violin, but we are not capa= ble to say =0Awhich note is being played (except for highly trained musicia= ns who have=0A actually a different brain configuration, I am talking of sc= ans not of =0Ametaphorical implications).<br>=0ASo my questions remain: how= can we have overlooked Rousseau's dictionary=0A for so long, which leads t= o another question: is our spectral =0Arepresentation really the good one, = according that Fourier was not =0Aworking on sound but on heat. Epistemolog= ically speaking, I think that =0Awe are going progressively off the tracks = since the 80s, and that there =0Ais a demand that our brain is being config= urated to match how computer =0Ahears sounds. I'd like to be proved wrong.<= br><br>Fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric Maintenant<br><br>=0A<table align=3D"center" bgco= lor=3D"#ffffcc" border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"1" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"1= 00%">=0A<tbody><tr valign=3D"top"><td align=3D"center" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" = nowrap=3D"nowrap"><br>=0A</td>=0A<td align=3D"left" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"><br= >=0A</td></tr></tbody>=0A</table>=0A</div><div style=3D"font-family: times = new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style=3D"font-fa= mily: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face=3D= "Tahoma" size=3D"2"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">De= :</span></b>=0A Yi Yu <yi.yu.yy@xxxxxxxx><br><b><span style=3D"font= -weight: bold;">=C3=80=0A :</span></b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<br><b><span= style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Envoy=C3=A9 le :</span></b> Mer 17 mars 2010,= 3 h 07 min 11 s<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Objet :</spa= n></b> Re: Re : Topics for =0Adiscussion<br></font><br><div>Dear list</div>= =0A<div> </div>=0A<div>The prolonged discussion for music can be done = effectively on =0ASoSoMir.net by creating a special group. SoSoMIR.net is a= professional =0Aweb site. The discussion result can be summarized and sent= to the =0AAUDITORY list.</div>=0A=0A<div><br>All the best </div>=0A<div>&n= bsp;</div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.= sosomir.net/">www.SoSoMIR.net</a></div>=0A<div> </div>=0A<div>Yi Yu<br= > </div>=0A<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 3/17/10, <b class=3D"gm= ail_sendername">fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric=0A maintenant</b> <<a rel=3D"nofollow= " ymailto=3D"mailto:fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:= fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx">fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:</span>=0A<blockqu= ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"padding-left: 1ex; margin: 0px 0px 0px 0= .8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">=0A<div>=0A<div style=3D"= font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;">=0A<di= v style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,ser= if;">Thank you Mr Bregman for your comment!<br><br>I take =0Athe opportunit= y to ask again (I believe I did not use the proper mode of=0A answering, si= nce 4 or 5 years I haven't been much active on the list, =0Abeing again mor= e involved with music):<br>=0ADoes anybody know or is aware of how Gunther = Schuller composed his piece=0A Spectra (1958), it seems that he used spectr= al analysis of sound, a =0Amethod that would be years ahead of his time. I = am not only interested =0Ain the musical aspect of his composition but also= in the potential =0Ascientific side: did he use scientific knowledge? = ; <br>=0A<br>Rousseau, in his dictionary, wrote already very advance things= =0Aconcerning differential sounds, partials, noise etc.; it seems that his= =0Amost mature and official writing (ie the dictionary) has been widely = =0Aoverlooked. Here's a paper by the Cornelia Fales that put forward some = =0Aof Rousseau's conception on sound and music:<br>=0A<br>Cornelia Fales (2= 005): Listening to timbre during the French =0Aenlightment, <br><br>i= t gives an excellent account of the epistemology =0Aof the notion of timbre= and can be read at:<br><br><span><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" hre= f=3D"http://www.oiccm.umontreal.ca/doc/cim05/articles/fales_c_cim05.pdf">ht= tp://www.oiccm.umontreal.ca/doc/cim05/articles/fales_c_cim05.pdf</a></span>= <br>=0A<br>I'd like to thank again Mr <font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2">Gior= dano to =0Ahave share with us the 1973 Wessel's paper:<br></font><br><a rel= =3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.music.mcgill.ca/%7Ebruno= /Wessel_1973.pdf">http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~bruno/Wessel_1973.pdf</a><br>= =0A<br>It is a real gem! I noticed that the orientation was much more =0Amu= sical than what can be read afterward, notably with the mention of =0AVar= =C3=A8se and Ligeti.<br><br>All the best,<br><br>Fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric Mainten= ant<br>Charg=C3=A9=0A de cours =C3=A0 l'universit=C3=A9 Paul Val=C3=A9ry, M= ontpellier<br>=0AMembre du groupe de recherche IDEAT/CNRS-Panth=C3=A9on-Sor= bonne, Paris<br><br>=0A<div style=3D"font-size: 13px; font-family: arial,he= lvetica,sans-serif;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2">=0A<hr size=3D"1">=0A= <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">De :</span></b> Al Bregman <<a rel= =3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:al.bregman@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" hre= f=3D"mailto:al.bregman@xxxxxxxx">al.bregman@xxxxxxxx</a>><br><b><span = style=3D"font-weight: bold;">=C3=80 :</span></b> <a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailt= o=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:AUDI= TORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br>=0A<b><span style=3D"= font-weight: bold;">Envoy=C3=A9 le :</span></b> Mar 16 mars =0A2010, 23 h 3= 4 min 04 s<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Objet :</span></b>= =0A Topics for discussion<br></font>=0A<div><span class=3D"e" id=3D"q_12769= c164010c927_1"><br>Dear list,<br><br>I =0Awould like to remind everyone tha= t the AUDITORY list members come<br>from=0A a variety of disciplines includ= ing experimental psychology,<br>linguistics=0A (especially phonology), infa= nt development, brain<br>=0Asciences, music and other sonic arts, audio tec= hnology, artificial<br>intelligence,=0A robotics, computer science, and spe= ech and hearing<br>science. For the=0A last little while, the posting= s seem to have focused<br>heavily on a =0Arather technical and heated discu= ssion of the mechanics<br>=0Aof the cochlea. It is impressive to see = the enthusiasm of researchers<br>on=0A this topic, but I hope that other pe= ople will not be discouraged<br>from=0A interrupting this discussion with q= uestions, announcements, and<br>messages=0A on other topics.<br>=0A<br>Perh= aps it would be a good idea if, when any group wishes to have a<br>prolonge= d=0A discussion of a highly specialized topic, they form a<br>discussion = =0Agroup of interested parties. It would then be of great<br>interest= for =0Athe list as a whole to be brought up to date on the<br>=0Athoughts,= and maybe conclusions, of this specialized group if any of<br>its=0A membe= rs were willing to take the trouble to write up summaries<br>from =0Atime t= o time.<br><br>Best to all,<br><br>Al<br><br>------------------------------= -----------------------------------------------<br>=0AAlbert S. Bregman, Em= eritus Professor<br>Psychology Department, McGill =0AUniversity<br>1205 Doc= teur Penfield Avenue<br>Montreal, QC, Canada H3A =0A1B1.<br>Office: P= hone: (514) 398-6103, Fax: (514) 398-4896<br><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"= _blank" href=3D"http://webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/Group2/abregm1/web/">http:/= /webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/Group2/abregm1/web/</a><br>=0A-------------------= ----------------------------------------------------------<br></span></div>= </div></div></div><br> </div></blockquote></div><br>=0A</div></div>=0A= </div><!-- ORIGINAL --><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,= times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style=3D"font-family: times new rom= an,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"= ><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">De :</span></b> Yi Yu= <yi.yu.yy@xxxxxxxx><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">=C3=80= :</span></b> fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric maintenant <fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx><br= ><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Cc :</span></b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= l.ca<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Envoy=C3=A9 le :</span></b> M= er 17 mars 2010, 3 h 07 min 11 s<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">O= bjet :</span></b> Re: [AUDITORY] Re : Topics for discussion<br></font>= <br><div>Dear list</div>=0A<div> </div>=0A<div>The prolonged discussio= n for music can be done effectively on SoSoMir.net by creating a special gr= oup. SoSoMIR.net is a professional web site. The discussion result can be s= ummarized and sent to the AUDITORY list.</div>=0A=0A<div><br>All the best <= /div>=0A<div> </div>=0A<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href= =3D"http://www.SoSoMIR.net">www.SoSoMIR.net</a></div>=0A<div> </div>= =0A<div>Yi Yu<br> </div>=0A<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 3/17/10= , <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric maintenant</b> <<a re= l=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" hr= ef=3D"mailto:fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx">fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:</spa= n>=0A<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"padding-left: 1ex; margin: = 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">=0A<div>=0A<= div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,s= erif;">=0A<div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new y= ork,times,serif;">Thank you Mr Bregman for your comment!<br><br>I take the = opportunity to ask again (I believe I did not use the proper mode of answer= ing, since 4 or 5 years I haven't been much active on the list, being again= more involved with music):<br>=0ADoes anybody know or is aware of how Gunt= her Schuller composed his piece Spectra (1958), it seems that he used spect= ral analysis of sound, a method that would be years ahead of his time. I am= not only interested in the musical aspect of his composition but also in t= he potential scientific side: did he use scientific knowledge? <br>= =0A<br>Rousseau, in his dictionary, wrote already very advance things conce= rning differential sounds, partials, noise etc.; it seems that his most mat= ure and official writing (ie the dictionary) has been widely overlooked. He= re's a paper by the Cornelia Fales that put forward some of Rousseau's conc= eption on sound and music:<br>=0A<br>Cornelia Fales (2005): Listening= to timbre during the French enlightment, <br><br>it gives an excellent acc= ount of the epistemology of the notion of timbre and can be read at:<br><br= ><span><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.oiccm.umont= real.ca/doc/cim05/articles/fales_c_cim05.pdf">http://www.oiccm.umontreal.ca= /doc/cim05/articles/fales_c_cim05.pdf</a></span><br>=0A<br>I'd like to than= k again Mr <font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2">Giordano to have share with us = the 1973 Wessel's paper:<br></font><br><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank= " href=3D"http://www.music.mcgill.ca/%7Ebruno/Wessel_1973.pdf">http://www.m= usic.mcgill.ca/~bruno/Wessel_1973.pdf</a><br>=0A<br>It is a real gem! I not= iced that the orientation was much more musical than what can be read after= ward, notably with the mention of Var=C3=A8se and Ligeti.<br><br>All the be= st,<br><br>Fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric Maintenant<br>Charg=C3=A9 de cours =C3=A0 l'u= niversit=C3=A9 Paul Val=C3=A9ry, Montpellier<br>=0AMembre du groupe de rech= erche IDEAT/CNRS-Panth=C3=A9on-Sorbonne, Paris<br><br>=0A<div style=3D"font= -size: 13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font face=3D"Tahoma= " size=3D"2">=0A<hr size=3D"1">=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">De = :</span></b> Al Bregman <<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:al.bregma= n@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:al.bregman@xxxxxxxx">al.breg= man@xxxxxxxx</a>><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">=C3=80 :</sp= an></b> <a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" tar= get=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LL.CA</a><br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Envoy=C3=A9 le :</spa= n></b> Mar 16 mars 2010, 23 h 34 min 04 s<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:= bold;">Objet :</span></b> Topics for discussion<br></font>=0A<div><sp= an class=3D"e" id=3D"q_12769c164010c927_1"><br>Dear list,<br><br>I would li= ke to remind everyone that the AUDITORY list members come<br>from a variety= of disciplines including experimental psychology,<br>linguistics (especial= ly phonology), infant development, brain<br>=0Asciences, music and other so= nic arts, audio technology, artificial<br>intelligence, robotics, computer = science, and speech and hearing<br>science. For the last little while= , the postings seem to have focused<br>heavily on a rather technical and he= ated discussion of the mechanics<br>=0Aof the cochlea. It is impressi= ve to see the enthusiasm of researchers<br>on this topic, but I hope that o= ther people will not be discouraged<br>from interrupting this discussion wi= th questions, announcements, and<br>messages on other topics.<br>=0A<br>Per= haps it would be a good idea if, when any group wishes to have a<br>prolong= ed discussion of a highly specialized topic, they form a<br>discussion grou= p of interested parties. It would then be of great<br>interest for th= e list as a whole to be brought up to date on the<br>=0Athoughts, and maybe= conclusions, of this specialized group if any of<br>its members were willi= ng to take the trouble to write up summaries<br>from time to time.<br><br>B= est to all,<br><br>Al<br><br>----------------------------------------------= -------------------------------<br>=0AAlbert S. Bregman, Emeritus Professor= <br>Psychology Department, McGill University<br>1205 Docteur Penfield Avenu= e<br>Montreal, QC, Canada H3A 1B1.<br>Office: Phone: (514) 398-6103, = Fax: (514) 398-4896<br><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:/= /webpages.mcgill.ca/staff/Group2/abregm1/web/">http://webpages.mcgill.ca/st= aff/Group2/abregm1/web/</a><br>=0A-----------------------------------------= ------------------------------------<br></span></div></div></div></div><br>= </div></blockquote></div><br>=0A</div></div>=0A</div><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0A </body></html> --0-983569126-1268837244=:49958--