Re: Question on sound booths (James Johnston )

Subject: Re: Question on sound booths From: James Johnston <James.Johnston@xxxxxxxx> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:52:34 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY> --_000_A3A915D4968D3547B15269C244643B620A028C0A0AEXCHANGE2K7dt_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And to add, just for the whole group, INSTALLATION IS KEY for such a booth,= single, double, whatever. jj __________________________ James D. Johnston (jj@xxxxxxxx) CHIEF SCIENTIST - DTS, Inc. 425-814-3200, ext. 134 - office 425-814-3204 - fax 206-321-7449- mobile 11410 NE 122nd Way, Suite 100 Kirkland, WA 98034 This electronic transmission (and/or the documents accompanying it) may con= tain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying= or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this communication in= error, please notify DTS, Inc immediately by telephone (425-814-3200) and = destroy the original message. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA] On Behalf Of Harriet B. Jacobster, AuD Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 7:12 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Question on sound booths Having some experience with buying booths... All other things BEING EQUAL, price differences are due to: Shipping and handling charges. Where are the two booths originating from? Manufacturer of the booth - each manufacturer has different prices The middle man - booths usually do not come from the manufacturer; they com= e from a "dealer." Dealers tack on surcharges. Set-up and Installation fees - make sure this is included. Taxes hbj ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Harriet B. Jacobster, Au.D., CCC-A, FAAA Board Certified in Audiology hjacobster@xxxxxxxx<mailto:hjacobster@xxxxxxxx> Idrick Akhoun wrote: Dear Leo, What justified a big price difference between the two manufacturers? Would you plan to use direct cochlear implant electrical stimulation, or ac= oustic free-field? In case of EEG experiments, the big trouble would be that most of the elect= rical noise would come from the RF transmission and internal electrical sti= mulation. In the case of direct stimulation behavioural tests or EEG experiments, it = seems to me that the booth would make no difference! I was wondering if the window size and cable-holes could have an effect on = the frequency-range of the Faraday cage shielding (bigger windows/holes let= ting lower frequencies outside electrical noise in). Maybe window can be fi= tted with metallic nets linked to the ground to reduce that prob. Cheers, Idrick -----Original Message----- From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA] On Behalf Of Alain de Cheveigne' Sent: 29 June 2010 13:44 To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Question on sound booths Leonid, In summary: (1) Define your needs. (2) Identify issues specific to your setting. (3) Get the manufacturer to commit to measurable specs. (4) Oversee the assembly. (5) Don't pay until your requirements are met. Requirements may differ according to whether you'll be doing human psychophysics, human electrophysiology, or animal physiology. They depend also on whether you'll be running near-threshold tasks or suprathreshold. If you'll be running tasks near threshold, threshold of hearing defines the objective to attain. If working with animals keep in mind that they might have lower thresholds. This determines your requirements with respect to ventilation & light noise, and together with external ambient noise levels, your isolation requirements. Ambient noise is highly variable from setting to setting, and over time. Peak levels are usually what count (door slamming, loud speech, etc.) rather than a long-term average. Is the booth to be installed in a room full of lively students? Air conditioning is a concern because the low frequency noise it produces is hard to isolate against. It may make sense to acoustically treat the room that the booth is installed in (reducing reverberation reduces sound level as well as voice levels). Structure-borne vibration may be a issue (footsteps, machinery, subway, etc.). If so the booth may need to be installed on vibration isolators. Sound absorbing inner walls and a carpet may be useful to limit subject-produced noise. Ventilation is a tricky issue. You need ventilation during an experiment, and in addition there may be official health requirements. Make sure that the manufacturer's specs apply with ventilation on (and be prepared to fight on this issue). Booth ventilation inlets/outlets should not be connected to the building air conditioning. It's a good idea to have a window. This allows to check if an experiment is running (and the subject is still alive) and it allows the option to install a screen outside to avoid acoustic and/or electric noise. Holes for cables. These should be large enough for all the cables you might need, including connectors unless you rewire them. Plugging the space around the cables with putty should give adequate isolation. You can also install a box over the opening and fill with acoustic foam. Make sure that the tube that lines the hole does not constitute an acoustic bridge. A hole is more flexible than a patch panel. Fire alarm. Check the requirements. Power outlet(s) inside the booth. Power cables should be shielded. Light. Be aware that lights may produce sound, heat, and electrical interference. If you're doing electrophysiology (human or animal) it may be worth having lights fed with filtered DC. You may also want a faraday cage. It's a good idea to be present during assembly to check for obvious mistakes such as damaged seals, acoustic bridges between walls, missing calking, etc. Define measurable requirements and make sure that you can force the manufacturer to meet them. For example make sure that they won't charge you for testing. Isolation is very hard to measure because it requires extremely high sound levels outside the booth to reach a measurable level inside. Good luck! Alain Dear List, We are considering two different sound booth manufacturers available in the California area. Both are offering the booths of comparable size and nominally same specs, but with very different prices attached to them. Does anyone have experience in ordering booths? How do we choose? Anything in particular to watch for besides the specs? Thanks a lot! Leo Notice: This message and any included attachments are intended only for the use of = the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged or confidenti= al. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any= dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly p= rohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please destroy= the original message and any copies or printouts hereof. --_000_A3A915D4968D3547B15269C244643B620A028C0A0AEXCHANGE2K7dt_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:= //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style>  </style>  </head> <body bgcolor=3D"#CCFFFF" lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DWordSection1> And to add, just for the whole group, INSTALLATION IS KEY for such a booth, single, double, whatever.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> jj<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <div> = __________________________<o:p></o:p> = James D. Johnston  (jj@xxxxxxxx)<o:p></o:p> CHIEF SCIENTIST - DTS, Inc. 425-814-3200, ext. 134 - office 425-814-3204 - fax 206-321-7449- mobile 11410 NE 122nd Way,  Suite 100 Kirkland, WA 98034 This electronic transmission (and/or the documents accompany= ing it) may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized u= se, copying or distribution is prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify DTS, Inc immediately by telephone (425-814-3200) and destroy the original message. Messages sent to and from = us may be monitored.<o:p></o:p> </div> <o:p> </o:p> <div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'> From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Harriet B. Jacobster, AuD Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 7:12 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Question on sound booths<o:p></o:p></= p> </div> </div> <o:p> </o:p> Having some experienc= e with buying booths... All other things BEING EQUAL, price differences are due to: Shipping and handling charges. Where are the two booths originating from?<b= r> Manufacturer of the booth - each manufacturer has different prices The middle man - booths usually do not come from the manufacturer; they come from a "dealer."  Dealers tack on surcharges. Set-up and Installation fees - make sure this is included. Taxes hbj ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Harriet B. Jacobster, Au.D., CCC-A, FAAA Board Certified in Audiology <a href=3D"mailto:hjacobster@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">hjacobster@xxxxxxxx<= /a> Idrick Akhoun wrote: <o:p></o:p> <pre>Dear Leo,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>What justif= ied a big price difference between the two manufacturers?<o:p></o:p></pre><= pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Would you plan to use direct cochlear impla= nt electrical stimulation, or acoustic free-field?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:= p> </o:p></pre><pre>In case of EEG experiments, the big trouble would = be that most of the electrical noise would come from the RF transmission an= d internal electrical stimulation.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></= pre><pre>In the case of direct stimulation behavioural tests or EEG experim= ents, it seems to me that the booth would make no difference!<o:p></o:p></p= re><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I was wondering if the window size and = cable-holes could have an effect on the frequency-range of the Faraday cage= shielding (bigger windows/holes letting lower frequencies outside electric= al noise in). Maybe window can be fitted with metallic nets linked to the g= round to reduce that prob.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre= >Cheers,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Idrick<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p>= </pre><pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: AUDITORY -= Research in Auditory Perception [<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a= >] On Behalf Of Alain de Cheveigne'<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: 29 June 2010= 13:44<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><o:p><= /o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Question on sound booths<o:p></o:p>= </pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Leonid,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&n= bsp;</o:p></pre><pre>In summary: (1) Define your needs.  (2) Identify = issues specific to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>your setting.  (3) Get the man= ufacturer to commit to measurable<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>specs. (4) Oversee t= he assembly.  (5) Don't pay until your<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>requiremen= ts are met.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Requirements m= ay differ according to whether you'll be doing human<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>p= sychophysics, human electrophysiology, or animal physiology.  They<o:p= ></o:p></pre><pre>depend also on whether you'll be running near-threshold t= asks or<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>suprathreshold.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbs= p;</o:p></pre><pre>If you'll be running tasks near threshold, threshold of = hearing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>defines the objective to attain.  If work= ing with animals keep in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>mind that they might have low= er thresholds.  This determines your<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>requirements= with respect to ventilation & light noise, and together<o:p></o:p></pr= e><pre>with external ambient noise levels, your isolation requirements.<o:p= ></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Ambient noise is highly varia= ble from setting to setting, and over<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>time.  Peak= levels are usually what count (door slamming, loud<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>sp= eech, etc.) rather than a long-term average.  Is the booth to be<o:p><= /o:p></pre><pre>installed in a room full of lively students?  Air cond= itioning is a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>concern because the low frequency noise = it produces is hard to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>isolate against.  It may m= ake sense to acoustically treat the room<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>that the boot= h is installed in (reducing reverberation reduces sound<o:p></o:p></pre><pr= e>level as well as voice levels).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></p= re><pre>Structure-borne vibration may be a issue (footsteps, machinery,<o:p= ></o:p></pre><pre>subway, etc.).  If so the booth may need to be insta= lled on vibration<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>isolators.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p= > </o:p></pre><pre>Sound absorbing inner walls and a carpet may be use= ful to limit<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>subject-produced noise.<o:p></o:p></pre><= pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Ventilation is a tricky issue.  You ne= ed ventilation during an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>experiment, and in addition t= here may be official health<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>requirements.  Make s= ure that the manufacturer's specs apply with<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ventilati= on on (and be prepared to fight on this issue).  Booth<o:p></o:p></pre= ><pre>ventilation inlets/outlets should not be connected to the building<o:= p></o:p></pre><pre>air conditioning.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p>= </pre><pre>It's a good idea to have a window.  This allows to check if= an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>experiment is running (and the subject is still al= ive) and it allows<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the option to install a screen outs= ide to avoid acoustic and/or<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>electric noise.<o:p></o:p= ></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Holes for cables.  These shoul= d be large enough for all the cables<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>you might need, i= ncluding connectors unless you rewire them.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Plugging t= he space around the cables with putty should give adequate<o:p></o:p></pre>= <pre>isolation.  You can also install a box over the opening and fill = with<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>acoustic foam.  Make sure that the tube that= lines the hole does not<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>constitute an acoustic bridge= .   A hole is more flexible than a patch<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>pan= el.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Fire alarm. Check the = requirements.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Power outlet= (s) inside the booth.  Power cables should be shielded.<o:p></o:p></pr= e><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Light.  Be aware that lights may pr= oduce sound, heat, and electrical<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>interference.<o:p></= o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>If you're doing electrophysiolog= y (human or animal) it may be worth<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>having lights fed = with filtered DC.   You may also want a faraday<o:p></o:p></pre><= pre>cage.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>It's a good idea= to be present during assembly to check for obvious<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>mi= stakes such as damaged seals, acoustic bridges between walls,<o:p></o:p></p= re><pre>missing calking, etc.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><= pre>Define measurable requirements and make sure that you can force the<o:p= ></o:p></pre><pre>manufacturer to meet them.  For example make sure th= at they won't<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>charge you for testing.  Isolation = is very hard to measure because it<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>requires extremely = high sound levels outside the booth to reach a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>measura= ble level inside.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Good luc= k!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Alain<o:p></o:p></pre><= pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>  <o:p></o= :p></pre> <blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Dear List,<= o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>We are considering two dif= ferent sound booth manufacturers available<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>in the Cali= fornia area. Both are offering the booths of comparable<o:p></o:p></pre><pr= e>size and nominally same specs, but with very different prices<o:p></o:p><= /pre><pre>attached to them. Does anyone have experience in ordering booths?= <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>How do we choose? Anything in particular to watch for= besides the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>specs?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </= o:p></pre><pre>Thanks a lot!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><p= re>Leo<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>    <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquot= e> <o:p> </o:p> </div> <DIV> Notice: This message and any included attachments are intended only for the use of = the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged or confidenti= al. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any= dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly p= rohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please destroy= the original message and any copies or printouts hereof. </DIV></body> </html> --_000_A3A915D4968D3547B15269C244643B620A028C0A0AEXCHANGE2K7dt_--

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