Re: loud music (Edward Large )


Subject: Re: loud music
From:    Edward Large  <large@xxxxxxxx>
Date:    Fri, 24 Sep 2010 08:56:31 -0400
List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>

--Apple-Mail-11--64369876 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Hi Bill, Interesting. But I would argue that there is another, far more = straightforward explanation: The auditory nervous system is highly nonlinear. Nonlinear responses = arise both in the cochlea=20 and in the central auditory system. In humans, auditory brainstem = recordings show nonlinear population=20 responses to combinations of pure tones, and to musical intervals = composed of complex tones.=20 In nonlinear systems, gain changes the nature of the response = qualitatively. The stronger the input, the more nonlinear resonances (harmonics, subharmonics, = combination tones and integer ratios) appear.=20 According to this reasoning, louder music is not just more of the same = thing =85 it is a qualitatively different experience. Louder music should literally lead to different = patterns of resonance in the=20 auditory system. Ed Edward Large Associate Professor of Complex Systems and Brain Sciences Florida Atlantic University www.ccs.fau.edu/~large tel: 561.297.0106 fax: 561.297.3634 On Sep 24, 2010, at 6:05 AM, Bill Thompson wrote: > You might be interested in the following discussions of loudness.=20 >=20 > http://www.blesser.net/downloads/eContact%20Loud%20Music.pdf >=20 > and=20 >=20 > http://www.blesser.net/spacesSpeak.html >=20 > Bill Thompson > Professor and Head > Department of Psychology > Macquarie University > Sydney, NSW, 2109, Australia > http://www.psy.mq.edu.au/staff/bthompson > Ph: ++61-2-9850-4083 > Mobile: 0431-275-148 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 24/09/2010, at 5:28 PM, Laszlo Toth wrote: >=20 >> On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx wrote: >>=20 >>> Old guys with undamaged hair cells have the advantage that they can = fully >>> enjoy classical tonal music with its change from dissonant to = consonant >>> chords and back. According to the Helmholtz consonance theory that >>> change is due to the presence or absence of beats generated by pairs = of >>> partial tones of almost equal frequencies. These partials tend to be >>> soft, and their frequencies tend to be high. >>=20 >> Do you know the answer to the opposite: why is rock music more = enjoyable >> loud? I think that it would be important to understand. >>=20 >> Laszlo Toth >> Hungarian Academy of Sciences * >> Research Group on Artificial Intelligence * "Failure only = begins >> e-mail: tothl@xxxxxxxx * when you stop = trying" >> http://www.inf.u-szeged.hu/~tothl * >=20 --Apple-Mail-11--64369876 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 <html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; = "><div>Hi Bill,</div><div><br></div><div>Interesting. But&nbsp;I would = argue that there is another, far more straightforward = explanation:</div><br>The auditory nervous system is highly = nonlinear.&nbsp;&nbsp;Nonlinear responses arise both in the = cochlea&nbsp;<br>and&nbsp;in the central auditory system. In humans, = auditory&nbsp;brainstem recordings show&nbsp;nonlinear = population&nbsp;<div>responses to combinations of&nbsp;pure tones, and = to musical intervals composed of&nbsp;complex = tones.&nbsp;<div><div><br></div><div>In nonlinear systems, gain changes = the nature&nbsp;of the response qualitatively. The stronger = the</div><div>input, the more nonlinear resonances (harmonics, = subharmonics, combination tones and</div><div>integer ratios) = appear.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>According to this reasoning, = louder music is not just more of the same thing =85 it is a = qualitatively</div><div>different experience. Louder music should = literally lead to different patterns of resonance in = the&nbsp;</div><div>auditory = system.</div><div><br></div><div>Ed</div><div><div><div><br>Edward = Large<br>Associate Professor of Complex Systems and Brain = Sciences<br>Florida Atlantic University<br><a = href=3D"http://www.ccs.fau.edu/~large">www.ccs.fau.edu/~large</a><br>tel: = 561.297.0106<br>fax: = 561.297.3634<br></div></div></div></div></div><div><div>On Sep 24, 2010, = at 6:05 AM, Bill Thompson wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">You might be interested in the = following discussions of loudness.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div><a = href=3D"http://www.blesser.net/downloads/eContact%20Loud%20Music.pdf">http= ://www.blesser.net/downloads/eContact%20Loud%20Music.pdf</a></div><div><br= ></div><div>and&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><a = href=3D"http://www.blesser.net/spacesSpeak.html">http://www.blesser.net/sp= acesSpeak.html</a><br><div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Times" size=3D"4"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-size: 16px;"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" = face=3D"Helvetica"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: = medium;"><br></span></font></span></font></div><div><div> <div><div = style=3D"font-size: 12px; "><div style=3D"font-size: medium; = ">Bill&nbsp;Thompson</div><div style=3D"font-size: medium; ">Professor = and Head</div><div style=3D"font-size: medium; ">Department of = Psychology</div><div style=3D"font-size: medium; ">Macquarie = University</div><div style=3D"font-size: medium; ">Sydney, NSW, 2109, = Australia</div><div style=3D"font-size: medium; "><a = href=3D"http://www.psy.mq.edu.au/staff/bthompson">http://www.psy.mq.edu.au= /staff/bthompson</a></div><div style=3D"font-size: medium; ">Ph: = ++61-2-9850-4083</div><div style=3D"font-size: medium; ">Mobile: = 0431-275-148</div></div></div><div><br></div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br><div><div>On 24/09/2010, = at 5:28 PM, Laszlo Toth wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, <a = href=3D"mailto:reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx">reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx</a> = wrote:</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> = <blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Old guys with undamaged = hair cells have the advantage that they can fully</div><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">enjoy classical tonal music with its change from = dissonant to consonant</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">chords and back. According = to the Helmholtz consonance theory that</div><div style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">change = is due to the presence or absence of beats generated by pairs = of</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: = 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">partial tones of almost equal frequencies. = These partials tend to be</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">soft, and = their frequencies tend to be high.</div> </blockquote><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Do you = know the answer to the opposite: why is rock music more = enjoyable</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">loud? I think that it would be = important to understand.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: = 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = &nbsp; &nbsp; </span>Laszlo Toth</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = </span>Hungarian Academy of Sciences <span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = </span>*</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; </span>Research Group on = Artificial Intelligence <span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; = </span>* <span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; </span>"Failure = only begins</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; </span>e-mail: <a = href=3D"mailto:tothl@xxxxxxxx">tothl@xxxxxxxx</a><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = &nbsp; </span>*<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; = </span>when you stop trying"</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; </span><a = href=3D"http://www.inf.u-szeged.hu/~tothl">http://www.inf.u-szeged.hu/~tot= hl</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; = </span>*</div> = </blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></bo= dy></html>= --Apple-Mail-11--64369876--


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