Re: Why it has to be played loud (James Johnston )

Subject: Re: Why it has to be played loud From: James Johnston <James.Johnston@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:25:45 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY> --_000_A3A915D4968D3547B15269C244643B620A6F339274EXCHANGE2K7dt_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" There seem to be a number of factors at work. First is the heavy intermod/distortion of some equipment that is used in a = euphonic sense (perhaps not all people appreciate the euphony, I will note). Second is the "rock and roll high", which seems, if I am to accept what som= e of the folks at the House Ear Institute and others have said, to be parti= ally a product of stimulation of the semicircular canals by low frequency l= eakage from the cochlea. This is reputed to happen at the 90dB SPL level at= low frequencies, give or take, and is reputed to create a sensation of "be= ing high". This could account for some measure of "loud". I suspect that the body stim= ulation from intense (not really loud, rather it's intense, really) signals= also has something to do with it. Having said all of that, not everyone (hello!) shares the desire to have th= eir outer hair cells shredded. __________________________ James D. Johnston (jj@xxxxxxxx) CHIEF SCIENTIST - DTS, Inc. 425-814-3200, ext. 134 - office 425-814-3204 - fax 206-321-7449- mobile 11410 NE 122nd Way, Suite 100 Kirkland, WA 98034 This electronic transmission (and/or the documents accompanying it) may con= tain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying= or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this communication in= error, please notify DTS, Inc immediately by telephone (425-814-3200) and = destroy the original message. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA] On Behalf Of Brian Gygi Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 9:53 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: [AUDITORY] Why it has to be played loud Lazlo, I know from my experience as a "rock" musician that there are certain ampli= fiers (Mesa Boogie, Gallien-Kruger and Marshall seem to be the best example= s) which sound their best when the gain is nearly at full. The harmonics a= re richer, and there is an edge to the sound that is just not present at lo= wer settings. In fact, one G-K amp I had sounded fabulous right before it = caught on fire (really). I don't know if this is a conscious engineering d= esign (I suspect so) but I have found it's pretty reliable. That's why the= joke about "turning the amp to 11" in Spinal Tap had such resonance. Brian Gygi, Ph.D. Speech and Hearing Research Veterans Affairs Northern California Health Care System 150 Muir Road Martinez, CA 94553 (925) 372-2000 x5653 -----Original Message----- From: Laszlo Toth [mailto:tothl@xxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 12:28 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Hearing Loss "False Positives" On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx wrote: > Old guys with undamage= d hair cells have the advantage that they can fully > enjoy classical tonal= music with its change from dissonant to consonant > chords and back. Accor= ding to the Helmholtz consonance theory that > change is due to the presenc= e or absence of beats generated by pairs of > partial tones of almost equal= frequencies. These partials tend to be > soft, and their frequencies tend = to be high. Do you know the answer to the opposite: why is rock music more = enjoyable loud? I think that it would be important to understand. Laszlo To= th Hungarian Academy of Sciences * Research Group on Artificial Intelligenc= e * "Failure only begins e-mail: tothl@xxxxxxxx * when you stop tryi= ng" http://www.inf.u-szeged.hu/~tothl * Notice: This message and any included attachments are intended only for the use of = the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged or confidenti= al. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any= dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly p= rohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please destroy= the original message and any copies or printouts hereof. --_000_A3A915D4968D3547B15269C244643B620A6F339274EXCHANGE2K7dt_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:x=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns:p=3D"urn:schemas-m= icrosoft-com:office:powerpoint" xmlns:a=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office= :access" xmlns:dt=3D"uuid:C2F41010-65B3-11d1-A29F-00AA00C14882" xmlns:s=3D"= uuid:BDC6E3F0-6DA3-11d1-A2A3-00AA00C14882" xmlns:rs=3D"urn:schemas-microsof= t-com:rowset" xmlns:z=3D"#RowsetSchema" xmlns:b=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-co= m:office:publisher" xmlns:ss=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:spreadshee= t" xmlns:c=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:component:spreadsheet" xmlns= :odc=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:odc" xmlns:oa=3D"urn:schemas-micro= soft-com:office:activation" xmlns:html=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" = xmlns:q=3D"http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/" xmlns:rtc=3D"http://m= icrosoft.com/officenet/conferencing" xmlns:D=3D"DAV:" xmlns:Repl=3D"http://= schemas.microsoft.com/repl/" xmlns:mt=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/share= point/soap/meetings/" xmlns:x2=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/excel= /2003/xml" xmlns:ppda=3D"http://www.passport.com/NameSpace.xsd" xmlns:ois= =3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/ois/" xmlns:dir=3D"http://= schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/directory/" xmlns:ds=3D"http://www.w3= .org/2000/09/xmldsig#" xmlns:dsp=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint= /dsp" xmlns:udc=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc" xmlns:xsd=3D"http= ://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" xmlns:sub=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sha= repoint/soap/2002/1/alerts/" xmlns:ec=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/04/xmlenc#"= xmlns:sp=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/" xmlns:sps=3D"http://= schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/" xmlns:xsi=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001= /XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:udcs=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/so= ap" xmlns:udcxf=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/xmlfile" xmlns:udc= p2p=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/parttopart" xmlns:wf=3D"http:/= /schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/workflow/" xmlns:dsss=3D"http://sche= mas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig-setup" xmlns:dssi=3D"http://schemas.mi= crosoft.com/office/2006/digsig" xmlns:mdssi=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformat= s.org/package/2006/digital-signature" xmlns:mver=3D"http://schemas.openxmlf= ormats.org/markup-compatibility/2006" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.c= om/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns:mrels=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/pa= ckage/2006/relationships" xmlns:spwp=3D"http://microsoft.com/sharepoint/web= partpages" xmlns:ex12t=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/20= 06/types" xmlns:ex12m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/200= 6/messages" xmlns:pptsl=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/Sli= deLibrary/" xmlns:spsl=3D"http://microsoft.com/webservices/SharePointPortal= Server/PublishedLinksService" xmlns:Z=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" xmlns:= st=3D"" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style>  </style>  </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DWordSection1> There seem to be a number of factors at work.<o:p></o:p></sp= an> <o:p> </o:p> First is the heavy intermod/distortion of some equipment tha= t is used in a euphonic sense (perhaps not all people appreciate the euphony, I = will note).  <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Second is the “rock and roll high”, which seems,= if I am to accept what some of the folks at the House Ear Institute and others have said, to be partially a product of stimulation of the semicircular can= als by low frequency leakage from the cochlea. This is reputed to happen at the 90dB SPL level at low frequencies, give or take, and is reputed to create a sensation of “being high”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> This could account for some measure of “loud”. I suspect that the body stimulation from intense (not really loud, rather it&= #8217;s intense, really) signals also has something to do with it.<o:p></o:p></span= > <o:p> </o:p> Having said all of that, not everyone (hello!) shares the de= sire to have their outer hair cells shredded.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> = __________________________<o:p></o:p> = James D. Johnston  (jj@xxxxxxxx)<o:p></o:p> CHIEF SCIENTIST - DTS, Inc. 425-814-3200, ext. 134 - office 425-814-3204 - fax 206-321-7449- mobile 11410 NE 122nd Way,  Suite 100 Kirkland, WA 98034 This electronic transmission (and/or the documents accompany= ing it) may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized u= se, copying or distribution is prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify DTS, Inc immediately by telephone (425-814-3200) and destroy the original message. Messages sent to and from = us may be monitored.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'> From: AUDITORY - Re= search in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx On Behalf Of </= b>Brian Gygi Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 9:53 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: [AUDITORY] Why it has to be played loud<o:p></o:p></= p> </div> <o:p> </o:p> <div> Lazlo, I know from my experience as a "rock" musician that there are cer= tain amplifiers (Mesa Boogie, Gallien-Kruger and Marshall seem to be the best examples) which sound their best when the gain is nearly at full.  The harmonics are richer, and there is an edge to the sound that is just not present at lower settings.  In fact, one G-K amp I had sounded fabulous right before it caught on fire (really).  I don't know if this is a conscious engineering design (I suspect so) but I have found it's pretty reliable.  That's why the joke about "turning the amp to 11"= in Spinal Tap had such resonance.   <o:p></o:p> </div> Brian Gygi, Ph.D. Speech and Hearing Research Veterans Affairs Northern California Health Care System 150 Muir Road Martinez, CA 94553 (925) 372-2000 x5653<o:p></o:p> <div>  <o:p></o:p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0= in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> -----Original Message----- From: Laszlo Toth [mailto:tothl@xxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 12:28 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Hearing Loss "False Positives" On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx wrote: > Old guys with undamaged hair cells have the advantage that they can fully > enjoy classical tonal music with its change from dissonant to consonant > chor= ds and back. According to the Helmholtz consonance theory that > change is = due to the presence or absence of beats generated by pairs of > partial tone= s of almost equal frequencies. These partials tend to be > soft, and their frequencies tend to be high. Do you know the answer to the opposite: why is rock music more enjoyable loud? I think that it would be important to understand. Laszlo Toth Hungarian Academy of Sciences * Research Group on Artificial Intelligence * "Failure only begins e-mail: tothl@xxxxxxxx * when you stop trying" http://www.inf.u-szeged.hu/~tothl * <o:p></o:p> </blockquote> </div> <DIV> Notice: This message and any included attachments are intended only for the use of = the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged or confidenti= al. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any= dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly p= rohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please destroy= the original message and any copies or printouts hereof. </DIV></body> </html> --_000_A3A915D4968D3547B15269C244643B620A6F339274EXCHANGE2K7dt_--

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