Re: Dissonance with integration? ("reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx" )

Subject: Re: Dissonance with integration? From: "reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx" <reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 10:55:00 +0000 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY> ------=_Part_791_7273588.1285498500458 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matthew, With respect to "sonance" (consonance and dissonance), one can be more spec= ific, I think. The Helmholtz consonance theory states that dissonance is pe= rceived if the rate of beats generated by two partial tones of almost equal= frequencies is in a certain range, approximately between sqrt(f) and 2*sqrt(f). For instance, if the the average frequency f= of the two beating partials is 2500 Hz, then beat rates ranging from 50 to= 100 beats per second are especially disagreeable. That theory does not exp= lain the extraordinary beauty of the minor and major thirds composed of har= monic complex tones in the female-singing pitch region. In the mentioned ar= ticle [R.F., "Psychoacoustic experiments ...", Canadian Acoustics Vol. 35 N= o. 3 (2007) 38-45] and also in my book "Meantone Is Beautiful" (2002) I hav= e proposed "condition b", an addition to the Helmholtz theory: consonance i= s enhanced if in the excitation pattern generated by a two-tone on the basi= lar membrane of the cochlea there are few or no wide gaps (in other words, = if the BM is stroked by something like a flat hand, and not by a fork). Reinhart. ----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht---- Von: mccabem@xxxxxxxx Datum: 25.09.2010 22:54 An: <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Betreff: Re: Dissonance with integration? Martin, I think you are forgetting the importance of mental states and priming in= =20 music perception. Certainly there are biological "bottom-up" processes=20 that you suggest below, but i think we are using the same words in=20 different languages here... "Pitch" and "chroma" to me are nameable bits of musical information -=20 without higher order cognitive functions, pitch and chroma cannot be=20 categorized or sorted -- or indeed, even recognized. species with more=20 highly developed cognitive function have octave recognition, others do=20 not... it's escaping me who did the study on Tamarins' preferences for=20 consonance/dissonance... i think you are referring to the auditory system's capability of=20 extracting surface-level features such as frequency relationships and=20 harmonicity -- "Pitch" is a cultural phenomenon, as Kevin has suggested.=20 Frequencies and harmonic relationships are, more or less "physics" that is= =20 processed by the auditory pathway until its arrival at the auditory=20 cortex. speaking of which -- have you read the paper about plasticity in tonotopic= =20 maps? perhaps this has something to do with perception about consonance=20 and dissonance. i'll see if i can find it... the finding was that in A1=20 the tonotopic map is not organized as once thought, is different across=20 individuals, and has L/R/ lateralization differences... are we speaking about consonance as "Harmonically related" and dissonance= =20 as "not harmonically related"? i can see that as a point of confusion=20 between disciplines. I agree that there are hard-wired responses to acoustic phenomena=20 (fight/flight/etc), but music is, for the most part, unnatural. Using=20 comparisons to animal calls is interesting, but at the end of the day, not= =20 the same thing. without cognitive processes such as memory, music=20 perception would be fleeting. Mental state has as much to do with=20 receiving musical information as the timbral content of the sound...=20 regardless of the style or level of dissonance the particular culture has= =20 imparted on particular organizations of sounds -- also a "top-down"=20 process. i guess i'm confused as to why it can't be looked at both ways... -m --------------------------------- Reinhart Frosch, CH-5200 Brugg. reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx . ------=_Part_791_7273588.1285498500458 Content-Type: text/html;charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><style type=3D'text/css'>  </style> </head><body><div class=3D'bwmail'>Matthew, With respect to "sonance" (consonance and dissonance), one can be more s= pecific, I think. The Helmholtz consonance theory states that dissonance is= perceived if the rate of beats generated by two partial tones of almost eq= ual frequencies is in a certain range, approximately between sqrt(f) and 2*sqrt(f). For instance, if the the average frequenc= y f of the two beating partials is 2500 Hz, then beat rates ranging from 50= to 100 beats per second are especially disagreeable. That theory does not = explain the extraordinary beauty of the minor and major thirds composed of = harmonic complex tones in the female-singing pitch region. In the mentioned= article [R.F., "Psychoacoustic experiments ...", Canadian Acoustics Vol. 3= 5 No. 3 (2007) 38-45] and also in my book "Meantone Is Beautiful" (2002) I = have proposed "condition b", an addition to the Helmholtz theory: consonanc= e is enhanced if in the excitation pattern generated by a two-tone on the b= asilar membrane of the cochlea there are few or no wide gaps (in other word= s, if the BM is stroked by something like a flat hand, and not by a fork).<= BR>Reinhart. ----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht---- Von: mccabem@xxxxxxxx Datu= m: 25.09.2010 22:54 An: <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Betreff: Re:= Dissonance with integration? Martin, I think you are forgett= ing the importance of mental states and priming in music perception.&nb= sp; Certainly there are biological "bottom-up" processes that you sugge= st below, but i think we are using the same words in different language= s here... "Pitch" and "chroma" to me are nameable bits of musical in= formation - without higher order cognitive functions, pitch and chroma = cannot be categorized or sorted -- or indeed, even recognized.  sp= ecies with more highly developed cognitive function have octave recogni= tion, others do not...  it's escaping me who did the study on Tama= rins' preferences for consonance/dissonance... i think you are r= eferring to the auditory system's capability of extracting surface-leve= l features such as frequency relationships and harmonicity -- "Pitch" i= s a cultural phenomenon, as Kevin has suggested. Frequencies and harmon= ic relationships are, more or less "physics" that is processed by the a= uditory pathway until its arrival at the auditory cortex. speaki= ng of which -- have you read the paper about plasticity in tonotopic ma= ps?  perhaps this has something to do with perception about consonance= and dissonance.  i'll see if i can find it... the finding was tha= t in A1 the tonotopic map is not organized as once thought, is differen= t across individuals, and has L/R/ lateralization differences... <BR= >are we speaking about consonance as "Harmonically related" and dissonance = as "not harmonically related"?  i can see that as a point of confu= sion between disciplines. I agree that there are hard-wired resp= onses to acoustic phenomena (fight/flight/etc), but music is, for the m= ost part, unnatural.  Using comparisons to animal calls is interes= ting, but at the end of the day, not the same thing.  without cogn= itive processes such as memory, music perception would be fleeting.&nbs= p; Mental state has as much to do with receiving musical information as= the timbral content of the sound... regardless of the style or level o= f dissonance the particular culture has imparted on particular organiza= tions of sounds -- also a "top-down" process. i guess i'm confus= ed as to why it can't be looked at both ways... -m --------------= ------------------- Reinhart Frosch, CH-5200 Brugg. <A href=3D"mailto:reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx= win.ch">reinifrosch@xxxxxxxx</A> . </div></body></html> ------=_Part_791_7273588.1285498500458--

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