Subject: Re: About importance of "phase" in sound recognition From: James Johnston <James.Johnston@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 19:38:00 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--_000_A3A915D4968D3547B15269C244643B620A6EE48A14EXCHANGE2K7dt_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" You can say we are hearing phase (differences, changes) or you can say we a= re hearing amplitude changes caused by phase. I'm sure it gets really tricky with more than two frequen= cies - another opportunity for aural illusion? --- Phase has a well-defined meaning that does not relate to perception. Ergo, = why the scare quotes around "phase"? Its relevance to auditory perception is an interesting problem, which I bel= ieve to be your point, actually. Finally, determining leading edges of waveform at low frequencies, or leadi= ng edge of envelope at high frequencies is a key aspect of both monaural an= d binaural hearing. While it's not a great term mathematically, it's very a= ppropriate to the actual perception that people with normal auditory system= s (including CNS) experience. Ergo, I can understand why the individual who= mentioned this did so. When dealing with the auditory system one does not deal in exactness or pre= cision, we are dealing with an instrument that is fundamentally probabilist= ic, and whose outputs are filtered down and data-reduced by something like = a factor of 1,000,000 before we are concious of the result. Every stange o= f that reduction is guided by experience, expectation, and cognition, as we= ll as what input is acquired from other senses. Ergo, I don't see any "inco= mplete specification", nor do I see any point in engaging in semantic argum= entation here, we are simply dealing with the system as it is, and we must,= if we are to have any discussion, deal with words and ideas that are not a= lways firm and non-probabilistic. As to "long mathematical analyses", I haven't seen anything here, in the ye= ar I've belonged, that even constituted a short, trivial mathematical analy= sis. Perhaps I've missed something? JJ Notice: This message and any included attachments are intended only for the use of = the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged or confidenti= al. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any= dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly p= rohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please destroy= the original message and any copies or printouts hereof. --_000_A3A915D4968D3547B15269C244643B620A6EE48A14EXCHANGE2K7dt_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <html dir=3D"ltr"><head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> <meta name=3D"GENERATOR" content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.18939"> <style title=3D"owaParaStyle"><!--P { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } --></style> </head> <body ocsi=3D"x"> <div dir=3D"ltr"><br> <br> You can say we are hearing phase (differences, changes) or you can say we a= re hearing amplitude changes <br> caused by phase. I'm sure it gets really tricky with more than two fr= equencies - another opportunity for aural illusion?<br> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr">---</div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr">Phase has a well-defined meaning that does not relate to p= erception. Ergo, why the scare quotes around "phase"?</div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr">Its relevance to auditory perception is an interesting pro= blem, which I believe to be your point, actually.</div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr">Finally, determining leading edges of waveform at low freq= uencies, or leading edge of envelope at high frequencies is a key aspect of= both monaural and binaural hearing. While it's not a great term mathematic= ally, it's very appropriate to the actual perception that people with normal auditory systems (including CNS)= experience. Ergo, I can understand why the individual who mentioned this d= id so.</div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr">When dealing with the auditory system one does not deal in= exactness or precision, we are dealing with an instrument that is fundamen= tally probabilistic, and whose outputs are filtered down and data-reduced b= y something like a factor of 1,000,000 before we are concious of the result. Every stange of that reduction= is guided by experience, expectation, and cognition, as well as what input= is acquired from other senses. Ergo, I don't see any "incomplete spec= ification", nor do I see any point in engaging in semantic argumentation here, we are simply dealing with the system as i= t is, and we must, if we are to have any discussion, deal with words and id= eas that are not always firm and non-probabilistic.</div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">As to "long mathematic= al analyses", I haven't seen anything here, in the year I've belonged,= that even constituted a short, trivial mathematical analysis. Perhaps I've= missed something?</font></div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman"></font> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"times new roman">JJ</font></div> <DIV> Notice:<BR> This message and any included attachments are intended only for the use of = the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged or confidenti= al. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any= dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly p= rohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please destroy= the original message and any copies or printouts hereof.<BR> </DIV></body> </html> --_000_A3A915D4968D3547B15269C244643B620A6EE48A14EXCHANGE2K7dt_--