Subject: Re: Sound file formats for journal From: Paris Smaragdis <paris@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:10:45 -0500 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Apple-Mail=_4AF11C9F-BEA8-4A18-81BE-79E3F28C028E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I wouldn't rely on Flash or any other de-facto standard. I would also = advise against a server-side solution, journal web pages disappear as = fast as author pages. If you really want to ensure that the media will not disappear they = should be part of the document itself. The PDF format has support for = embedding media (audio and video) and I would highly recommend making = use of that. Most PDF software can render the attached media without = making use of any external software (e.g. Acrobat will play wav, mp3, = mp4, aif and wma inline once you click on a trigger). This imposes no = extra burden on the user and guarantees that the data will be available = instantly all the time. This is a much more streamlined experience, you = see a graph, you click on it, you get a sound. Redirecting people to = websites, necessitating an internet connection, or extra software is not = of much help. If one wishes to use a more exotic audio format it is also possible to = add a file attachment to a PDF which can then be rendered by the = appropriate software externally. It is trivial to embed any kind of = media using either standard GUI desktop software or LaTeX, so there's = minimal burden on the authors. We're actually in the process of pushing the IEEE to allow that = functionality for audio-related PDFs in their library. The sticking = point is that the archival quality PDF format does not embed media, but = that was an arbitrary decision which will eventually be revised. Best, Paris On Sep 14, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Bryan A Pardo <pardo@xxxxxxxx> = wrote: > A lot of people are trying to get away from flash and move towards = HTML5. HTML5 playback of MP3 is OK if your client is Chrome or Safari. = Firefox does not pay licensing fees for MP3 so you need to support file = playback in Flash if you use MP3, or you can run with Ogg Vorbis for = Firefox to stay in HTML5. If you just make files available for download = then this isn=92t an issue=85. > =20 > - Bryan Pardo > =20 > From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx On Behalf Of John O'Connell > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 7:41 AM > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Sound file formats for journal > =20 > Hi Robert, >=20 > You didn't mention how you planned to implement this embedding of = sounds into the online journal. As it is online then perhaps this = solution would work... its used by sites like soundcloud and last fm and = it supports a lot of formats and a lot of different browsers and = devices. >=20 > http://www.schillmania.com/projects/soundmanager2/ >=20 > It probably doesn't support flac: >=20 > = https://getsatisfaction.com/schillmania/topics/what_about_streaming_lossle= ss_audio_formats >=20 > Also, if you don't have time to implement support for all these audio = codecs, you could utilise software like ffmpeg on the server side to = transcode all uploaded stimuli to wave/MP3. You thus avoid the issues = associated with online playback of audio. You could then offer users the = option to download the stimuli in their original formats. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > John >=20 > El 14/09/2012 14:00, "Etienne Gaudrain" <egaudrain.cam@xxxxxxxx> = escribi=F3: > Hello Dan, >=20 > I realized part of my message was unclear. >=20 > I might be wrong but I think the ubiquitous method to play sound files = in a web-browser is, to date, based on Flash. This is the only = third-party multimedia plugin that is available on almost all computers = (and plateforms). Now if you download an MP3 file on your machine, of = course there's gazillions of (free) software that will let you read = them, not disputing that. >=20 > Now, as Flash is more-or-less set to disappear, especially on portable = devices, a lot of people have turned to HTML5. There you really rely on = what the browser natively supports. Again, I may be wrong but to my = knowledge, while IE, Chrome and Safari support MP3 (and not OGG, apart = for Chrome), Firefox and Opera support OGG (and not MP3). They all = support WAV though (well, except IE but who cares). So if compatibility = is to be maintained with all three main browsers, then both MP3 and OGG = should be used. That's what I wanted to suggest. >=20 > As for Nick's suggestion about mp3HD, I think this is a bit dangerous = because only players (and readers) supporting mp3HD will read the = lossless part. The others will only read the compressed part. So it = might be a bit tricky to know which part is actually used. >=20 > -Etienne >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 14/09/2012 09:55, Dan Stowell wrote: > Robert, >=20 > It's not clear to me whether you're asking about short-term = presentation or long-term archival. I think Etienne's response covers = the important points for short-term (although I would point out that MP3 = has an overwhelming critical mass of usage, and certainly doesn't rely = on flash for playback!). >=20 > For archival, the "TC04" archiving standard (IASA 2009) would = recommend that you aim for 24bit / 96 kHz BWAV (BWAV, "Broadcast WAV", = is related to ordinary WAV, with some small tweaks to the format for = scaleability). >=20 > Best > Dan >=20 >=20 > On 13/09/12 15:54, Robert Zatorre wrote: > Dear list >=20 > In an effort to enhance the Frontiers in Auditory Cognitive = Neuroscience > journal, we would like to enable sounds files to be uploaded for > reviewers to be able to hear the stimuli used in a given experiment. > Eventually we would also like to have a means of having these sound > files embedded directly into the online journal article so that = readers > can hear the stimuli used. (Of course this could apply not only to > stimuli, but also to other sound files that are part of the study, = such > as recorded vocalizations, speech or musical sounds produced under = some > experimental conditions, and so forth) >=20 > My question for you all is what file formats do you think we would = need > to support? The two obvious ones are wav and mp3, but perhaps there = are > others that you may think are important or that have some advantages > that should also be considered. >=20 > Thank you for your thoughts. >=20 > PS feel free to send me your comments directly >=20 > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >=20 > Robert J. Zatorre, Ph.D. > Montreal Neurological Institute > 3801 University St. > Montreal, QC Canada H3A 2B4 > phone: 1-514-398-8903 > fax: 1-514-398-1338 > e-mail: robert.zatorre@xxxxxxxx > web site: www.zlab.mcgill.ca --Apple-Mail=_4AF11C9F-BEA8-4A18-81BE-79E3F28C028E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = charset=3Dwindows-1252"><base href=3D"x-msg://250/"></head><body = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>I wouldn't rely on Flash = or any other de-facto standard. I would also advise against a = server-side solution, journal web pages disappear as fast as author = pages.</div><div><br></div><div>If you really want to ensure that the = media will not disappear they should be part of the document itself. = The PDF format has support for embedding media (audio and video) = and I would highly recommend making use of that. Most PDF software = can render the attached media without making use of any external = software (e.g. Acrobat will play wav, mp3, mp4, aif and wma inline once = you click on a trigger). This imposes no extra burden on the user and = guarantees that the data will be available instantly all the time. = This is a much more streamlined experience, you see a graph, you = click on it, you get a sound. Redirecting people to websites, = necessitating an internet connection, or extra software is not of much = help.</div><div><br></div><div>If one wishes to use a more exotic audio = format it is also possible to add a file attachment to a PDF which can = then be rendered by the appropriate software externally. It is = trivial to embed any kind of media using either standard GUI desktop = software or LaTeX, so there's minimal burden on the = authors.</div><div><br></div><div>We're actually in the process of = pushing the IEEE to allow that functionality for audio-related PDFs in = their library. The sticking point is that the archival quality PDF = format does not embed media, but that was an arbitrary decision which = will eventually be = revised.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Paris</div><div><br></di= v><br><div><div>On Sep 14, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Bryan A Pardo <<a = href=3D"mailto:pardo@xxxxxxxx">pardo@xxxxxxxx</a>> = wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" = style=3D"font-family: 'Myriad Pro'; font-size: medium; font-style: = normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: = normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"WordSection1" = style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; = font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span = style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: = rgb(31, 73, 125); ">A lot of people are trying to get away from flash = and move towards HTML5. HTML5 playback of MP3 is OK if your client is = Chrome or Safari. Firefox does not pay licensing fees for MP3 so you = need to support file playback in Flash if you use MP3, or you can run = with Ogg Vorbis for Firefox to stay in HTML5. If you just make files = available for download then this isn=92t an = issue=85.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; = font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span = style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: = rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in = 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; = text-indent: -0.25in; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: = Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>-<span = style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; = "> <span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span = style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: = rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Bryan Pardo<o:p></o:p></span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: = 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: = Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times = New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: = Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; = font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>AUDITORY - Research in = Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John = O'Connell<br><b>Sent:</b><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, September 14, 2012 = 7:41 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a= href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" style=3D"color: purple; = text-decoration: underline; = ">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [AUDITORY] Sound file = formats for journal<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in = 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; = "><o:p> </o:p></div><p style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: = 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Hi = Robert,<o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; = font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">You didn't = mention how you planned to implement this embedding of sounds into the = online journal. As it is online then perhaps this solution would work... = its used by sites like soundcloud and last fm and it supports a lot of = formats and a lot of different browsers and devices.<o:p></o:p></p><p = style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; = font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><a = href=3D"http://www.schillmania.com/projects/soundmanager2/" = style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; = ">http://www.schillmania.com/projects/soundmanager2/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p = style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; = font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">It probably doesn't support = flac:<o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; = font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><a = href=3D"https://getsatisfaction.com/schillmania/topics/what_about_streamin= g_lossless_audio_formats" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: = underline; = ">https://getsatisfaction.com/schillmania/topics/what_about_streaming_loss= less_audio_formats</a><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D"margin-right: 0in; = margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', = serif; ">Also, if you don't have time to implement support for all these = audio codecs, you could utilise software like ffmpeg on the server side = to transcode all uploaded stimuli to wave/MP3. You thus avoid the = issues associated with online playback of audio. You could then offer = users the option to download the stimuli in their original = formats.<o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; = font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; = ">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; = font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; = ">John<o:p></o:p></p><div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; = font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">El 14/09/2012 = 14:00, "Etienne Gaudrain" <<a href=3D"mailto:egaudrain.cam@xxxxxxxx" = style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; = ">egaudrain.cam@xxxxxxxx</a>> escribi=F3:<o:p></o:p></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times = New Roman', serif; ">Hello Dan,<br><br>I realized part of my message was = unclear.<br><br>I might be wrong but I think the ubiquitous method to = play sound files in a web-browser is, to date, based on Flash. This is = the only third-party multimedia plugin that is available on almost all = computers (and plateforms). Now if you download an MP3 file on your = machine, of course there's gazillions of (free) software that will let = you read them, not disputing that.<br><br>Now, as Flash is more-or-less = set to disappear, especially on portable devices, a lot of people have = turned to HTML5. There you really rely on what the browser natively = supports. Again, I may be wrong but to my knowledge, while IE, Chrome = and Safari support MP3 (and not OGG, apart for Chrome), Firefox and = Opera support OGG (and not MP3). They all support WAV though (well, = except IE but who cares). So if compatibility is to be maintained with = all three main browsers, then both MP3 and OGG should be used. That's = what I wanted to suggest.<br><br>As for Nick's suggestion about mp3HD, I = think this is a bit dangerous because only players (and readers) = supporting mp3HD will read the lossless part. The others will only read = the compressed part. So it might be a bit tricky to know which part is = actually used.<br><br>-Etienne<br><br><br><br>On 14/09/2012 09:55, Dan = Stowell wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; = font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; = ">Robert,<br><br>It's not clear to me whether you're asking about = short-term presentation or long-term archival. I think Etienne's = response covers the important points for short-term (although I would = point out that MP3 has an overwhelming critical mass of usage, and = certainly doesn't rely on flash for playback!).<br><br>For archival, the = "TC04" archiving standard (IASA 2009) would recommend that you aim for = 24bit / 96 kHz BWAV (BWAV, "Broadcast WAV", is related to ordinary WAV, = with some small tweaks to the format for = scaleability).<br><br>Best<br>Dan<br><br><br>On 13/09/12 15:54, Robert = Zatorre wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; = font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Dear = list<br><br>In an effort to enhance the Frontiers in Auditory Cognitive = Neuroscience<br>journal, we would like to enable sounds files to be = uploaded for<br>reviewers to be able to hear the stimuli used in a given = experiment.<br>Eventually we would also like to have a means of having = these sound<br>files embedded directly into the online journal article = so that readers<br>can hear the stimuli used. (Of course this could = apply not only to<br>stimuli, but also to other sound files that are = part of the study, such<br>as recorded vocalizations, speech or musical = sounds produced under some<br>experimental conditions, and so = forth)<br><br>My question for you all is what file formats do you think = we would need<br>to support? The two obvious ones are wav and mp3, but = perhaps there are<br>others that you may think are important or that = have some advantages<br>that should also be considered.<br><br>Thank you = for your thoughts.<br><br>PS feel free to send me your comments = directly<br><br>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<br><br>Robert J. = Zatorre, Ph.D.<br>Montreal Neurological Institute<br>3801 University = St.<br>Montreal, QC Canada H3A 2B4<br>phone:<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = href=3D"tel:1-514-398-8903" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; = text-decoration: underline; ">1-514-398-8903</a><br>fax:<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = href=3D"tel:1-514-398-1338" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; = text-decoration: underline; ">1-514-398-1338</a><br>e-mail:<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:robert.zatorre@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:= purple; text-decoration: underline; = ">robert.zatorre@xxxxxxxx</a><br>web site:<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = href=3D"http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: = purple; text-decoration: underline; = ">www.zlab.mcgill.ca</a><o:p></o:p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" = style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times = New Roman', serif; = "></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_4AF11C9F-BEA8-4A18-81BE-79E3F28C028E--