Subject: Re: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: Research From: Bastian Epp <bepp@xxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:48:12 +0100 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090301050208090704000906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi list! without having read the paper in detail, I just think the discussion=20 should be done with fair weapons: The description of the ear via a FFT is a rather poor model, but a FFT=20 (or rather the math behind that) can be interpretet as a bank of=20 overlapping bandpass filters (see the Oppenheim Schaefer DSP book)....so=20 this point raised is not valid. I would be surprised if this result would not have been reported before=20 in the solid psychoacoustics literature before. Bests BAstian On 02/18/2013 05:00 PM, James Johnston wrote: > I must admit some frustration with this particular paper. First, the > Gabor limit does not apply to the task, and never did. The only limit > here is SNR_based, since there is already expectation of a given set > of frequencies, this is not a task requiring arbitrary detection. > > Then, the fact that the ear is a leading edge detector has been > understood for roughly 100 years now, making "1/100 th of a > wavelength" perhaps not such a big deal. > > It is nice that this performance ability by the human has been clearly > demonstrated, but the headline is inexcusably misleading, and is > already providing fodder for the audiophile "I told you so" bunch who > simply doesn't understand what it means. > > And, in any case, who would use an FFT to detect such a thing? Rather > use a set of bandpass filters, eh? > > On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Peter Meijer > <feedback@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > =20 >> Indeed this relates to a discussion that we had 9 years ago, >> >> http://www.auditory.org/mhonarc/2004/msg00145.html >> >> and that formed the basis of my old web page on beating the >> frequency-time uncertainty principle, >> >> http://www.seeingwithsound.com/freqtime.htm >> >> Best regards, >> >> Peter Meijer >> >> >> Seeing with Sound - The vOICe >> http://www.seeingwithsound.com >> >> >> =20 >>> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 07:43:35 +0000 >>> From: "Beerends, J.G. (John)"<john.beerends@xxxxxxxx> >>> To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Re: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: >>> Research >>> >>> For discrimination the uncertainty limit does not exist, one can buil= d >>> discriminator devices that go below the uncertainty limit in both the= time >>> and frequency domain, the uncertainty limit is only a measure for the= spread >>> (Delta) in both domains (DfDt>1), it is not a limit to what extent th= ey can >>> be discriminated. One can also build a device that measures the frequ= ency of >>> a sine wave with an accuracy below the uncertainty limit by exploitin= g >>> a-priori knowledge, i.e. if I know that the signal I am measuring is= a >>> short cut out of an infinite duration sine wave of a certain amplitud= e I can >>> measure the frequency as accurate as I want. >>> >>> John Beerends >>> =20 >> =20 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception >>> [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Kevin Austin >>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 5:07 PM >>> To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: Resea= rch >>> >>> Comments? >>> >>> >>> =20 >>>>> http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.ht= ml >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (Phys.org)-For the first time, physicists have found that humans ca= n >>>>> discriminate a sound's frequency (related to a note's pitch) and ti= ming >>>>> (whether a note comes before or after another note) more than 10 ti= mes >>>>> better than the limit imposed by the Fourier uncertainty principle.= Not >>>>> surprisingly, some of the subjects with the best listening precisio= n were >>>>> musicians, but even non-musicians could exceed the uncertainty limi= t. The >>>>> results rule out the majority of auditory processing brain algorith= ms that >>>>> have been proposed, since only a few models can match this impressi= ve human >>>>> performance. >>>>> =20 >> =20 >>>>> Read more at: >>>>> http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.ht= ml#jCp >>>>> =20 >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Kevin >>> This e-mail and its contents are subject to the DISCLAIMER at >>> http://www.tno.nl/emaildisclaimer >>> =20 > > > =20 --=20 Bastian Epp Assistant Professor ELEK VIP DTU Electrical Engineering Technical University of Denmark =09 Department of Electrical Engineering =D8rsteds Plads Building 352 2800 Kgs. Lyngby Direct +45 45253953 bepp@xxxxxxxx <mailto:bepp@xxxxxxxx> www.elektro.dtu.dk/ <http://www.elektro.dtu.dk/> --------------090301050208090704000906 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------000409030809060508060504" --------------000409030809060508060504 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> </head> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> Hi list!<br> <br> without having read the paper in detail, I just think the discussion should be done with fair weapons:<br> <br> The description of the ear via a FFT is a rather poor model, but a FFT (or rather the math behind that) can be interpretet as a bank of overlapping bandpass filters (see the Oppenheim Schaefer DSP book)....so this point raised is not valid. <br> <br> I would be surprised if this result would not have been reported before in the solid psychoacoustics literature before.<br> <br> Bests<br> <br> BAstian<br> <br> <br> On 02/18/2013 05:00 PM, James Johnston wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:6104_1361252480_51231080_6104_147_1_CAO2qRdMEL+Dsbb-4M04hqaVxXxHs7Mfb+y9+boq=7L133TkPiQ@xxxxxxxx" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">I must admit some frustration with this particular paper. First, the Gabor limit does not apply to the task, and never did. The only limit here is SNR_based, since there is already expectation of a given set of frequencies, this is not a task requiring arbitrary detection. Then, the fact that the ear is a leading edge detector has been understood for roughly 100 years now, making "1/100 th of a wavelength" perhaps not such a big deal. It is nice that this performance ability by the human has been clearly demonstrated, but the headline is inexcusably misleading, and is already providing fodder for the audiophile "I told you so" bunch who simply doesn't understand what it means. And, in any case, who would use an FFT to detect such a thing? Rather use a set of bandpass filters, eh? On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Peter Meijer <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:feedback@xxxxxxxx"><feedback@xxxxxxxx></a> wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Indeed this relates to a discussion that we had 9 years ago, <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.auditory.org/mhonarc/2004/msg00145.html">http://www.auditory.org/mhonarc/2004/msg00145.html</a> and that formed the basis of my old web page on beating the frequency-time uncertainty principle, <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.seeingwithsound.com/freqtime.htm">http://www.seeingwithsound.com/freqtime.htm</a> Best regards, Peter Meijer Seeing with Sound - The vOICe <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.seeingwithsound.com">http://www.seeingwithsound.com</a> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 07:43:35 +0000 From: "Beerends, J.G. (John)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:john.beerends@xxxxxxxx"><john.beerends@xxxxxxxx></a> To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> Subject: Re: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: Research For discrimination the uncertainty limit does not exist, one can build discriminator devices that go below the uncertainty limit in both the time and frequency domain, the uncertainty limit is only a measure for the spread (Delta) in both domains (DfDt>1), it is not a limit to what extent they can be discriminated. One can also build a device that measures the frequency of a sine wave with an accuracy below the uncertainty limit by exploiting a-priori knowledge, i.e. if I know that the signal I am measuring is a short cut out of an infinite duration sine wave of a certain amplitude I can measure the frequency as accurate as I want. John Beerends </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> -----Original Message----- From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>] On Behalf Of Kevin Austin Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 5:07 PM To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> Subject: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: Research Comments? </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html">http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html</a> (Phys.org)-For the first time, physicists have found that humans can discriminate a sound's frequency (related to a note's pitch) and timing (whether a note comes before or after another note) more than 10 times better than the limit imposed by the Fourier uncertainty principle. Not surprisingly, some of the subjects with the best listening precision were musicians, but even non-musicians could exceed the uncertainty limit. The results rule out the majority of auditory processing brain algorithms that have been proposed, since only a few models can match this impressive human performance. </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> Read more at: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html#jCp">http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html#jCp</a> </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> Thanks Kevin This e-mail and its contents are subject to the DISCLAIMER at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tno.nl/emaildisclaimer">http://www.tno.nl/emaildisclaimer</a> </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> </pre> </blockquote> <br> <br> <div class="moz-signature">-- <br> <table> <tbody> <tr> <td> <div> <p> <table style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 8pt; color: Black; border-collapse: collapse;" width="400px" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td colspan="2" valign="top" width="400px"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 8pt; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Arial;" valign="top" width="400px"> Bastian Epp </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" style="color: rgb(155, 155, 155); font-size: 8pt; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Arial;" valign="top" width="400px"> Assistant Professor </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" style="font-size: 8pt; margin-bottom: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; font-family: Arial; height: 0px;" valign="top" width="400px"> ELEK VIP </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" style="font-size: 8pt; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Arial;" valign="top" width="400px"> DTU Electrical Engineering </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" style="border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(174, 174, 174); font-size: 8pt; line-height: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-top: 0px; margin-top: 0px;" valign="top" width="400px"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="padding-top: 8px;" valign="top" width="350px"> <p style="margin: 0px; font-size: 8pt; font-weight: bold; font-family: Arial;"> Technical University of Denmark</p> </td> <td rowspan="10" style="text-align: right; font-family: Arial; padding-top: 8px;" valign="top" width="50px" align="right"> <img src="cid:part1.08010709.00060308@xxxxxxxx" width="36" height="53"> </td> </tr> <tr style="margin: 0px; font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial;"> <td> Department of Electrical Engineering </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="margin: 0px; font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial;"> Ørsteds Plads </td> </tr> <tr style="margin: 0px; font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial;"> <td> Building 352 </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="margin: 0px; font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial;"> 2800 Kgs. 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