Re: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: Research (James Johnston )


Subject: Re: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: Research
From:    James Johnston  <audioskeptic@xxxxxxxx>
Date:    Wed, 20 Feb 2013 10:27:22 -0800
List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>

--089e012280fcef5edd04d62c1b0d Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e012280fcef5eda04d62c1b0c --089e012280fcef5eda04d62c1b0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, yes. Of course, and the FFT is not a minimum-phase filter, while the ear is very close to such. Well, there goes a large speed factor already, eh? On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Bastian Epp <bepp@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > ** > Hi list! > > without having read the paper in detail, I just think the discussion > should be done with fair weapons: > > The description of the ear via a FFT is a rather poor model, but a FFT (o= r > rather the math behind that) can be interpretet as a bank of overlapping > bandpass filters (see the Oppenheim Schaefer DSP book)....so this point > raised is not valid. > > I would be surprised if this result would not have been reported before i= n > the solid psychoacoustics literature before. > > Bests > > BAstian > > > On 02/18/2013 05:00 PM, James Johnston wrote: > > I must admit some frustration with this particular paper. First, the > Gabor limit does not apply to the task, and never did. The only limit > here is SNR_based, since there is already expectation of a given set > of frequencies, this is not a task requiring arbitrary detection. > > Then, the fact that the ear is a leading edge detector has been > understood for roughly 100 years now, making "1/100 th of a > wavelength" perhaps not such a big deal. > > It is nice that this performance ability by the human has been clearly > demonstrated, but the headline is inexcusably misleading, and is > already providing fodder for the audiophile "I told you so" bunch who > simply doesn't understand what it means. > > And, in any case, who would use an FFT to detect such a thing? Rather > use a set of bandpass filters, eh? > > On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Peter Meijer<feedback@xxxxxxxx= om> <feedback@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > Indeed this relates to a discussion that we had 9 years ago, > > http://www.auditory.org/mhonarc/2004/msg00145.html > > and that formed the basis of my old web page on beating the > frequency-time uncertainty principle, > > http://www.seeingwithsound.com/freqtime.htm > > Best regards, > > Peter Meijer > > > Seeing with Sound - The vOICehttp://www.seeingwithsound.com > > > Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 07:43:35 +0000 > From: "Beerends, J.G. (John)" <john.beerends@xxxxxxxx> <john.beerends@xxxxxxxx= L> > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: > Research > > For discrimination the uncertainty limit does not exist, one can build > discriminator devices that go below the uncertainty limit in both the tim= e > and frequency domain, the uncertainty limit is only a measure for the spr= ead > (Delta) in both domains (DfDt>1), it is not a limit to what extent they c= an > be discriminated. One can also build a device that measures the frequency= of > a sine wave with an accuracy below the uncertainty limit by exploiting > a-priori knowledge, i.e. if I know that the signal I am measuring is a > short cut out of an infinite duration sine wave of a certain amplitude I = can > measure the frequency as accurate as I want. > > John Beerends > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception > [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of= Kevin Austin > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 5:07 PM > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: Research > > Comments? > > > > > http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html > > > (Phys.org)-For the first time, physicists have found that humans can > discriminate a sound's frequency (related to a note's pitch) and timing > (whether a note comes before or after another note) more than 10 times > better than the limit imposed by the Fourier uncertainty principle. Not > surprisingly, some of the subjects with the best listening precision were > musicians, but even non-musicians could exceed the uncertainty limit. The > results rule out the majority of auditory processing brain algorithms tha= t > have been proposed, since only a few models can match this impressive hum= an > performance. > > > Read more at:http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertain= ty-principle.html#jCp > > Thanks > > Kevin > This e-mail and its contents are subject to the DISCLAIMER athttp://www.t= no.nl/emaildisclaimer > > > > -- > > Bastian Epp Assistant Professor ELEK VIP DTU Electrical > Engineering > > Technical University of Denmark > Department of Electrical Engineering =D8rsteds Plads Building 352= 2800 Kgs. Lyngby Direct +45 45253953 > bepp@xxxxxxxx www.elektro.dtu.dk/ > > > --=20 James D. (jj) Johnston Independent Audio and Electroacoustics Consultant --089e012280fcef5eda04d62c1b0c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, yes. Of course, and the FFT is not a minimum-phase filter, while the = ear is very close to such. Well, there goes a large speed factor already, e= h? <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Bast= ian Epp <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bepp@xxxxxxxx" target= =3D"_blank">bepp@xxxxxxxx</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-= color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class= =3D"gmail_quote"><u></u> =20 =20 <div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"> Hi list!<br> <br> without having read the paper in detail, I just think the discussion should be done with fair weapons:<br> <br> The description of the ear via a FFT is a rather poor model, but a FFT (or rather the math behind that) can be interpretet as a bank of overlapping bandpass filters (see the Oppenheim Schaefer DSP book)....so this point raised is not valid. <br> <br> I would be surprised if this result would not have been reported before in the solid psychoacoustics literature before.<br> <br> Bests<br> <br> BAstian<br> <br> <br> On 02/18/2013 05:00 PM, James Johnston wrote: <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <pre>I must admit some frustration with this particular paper. First, the Gabor limit does not apply to the task, and never did. The only limit here is SNR_based, since there is already expectation of a given set of frequencies, this is not a task requiring arbitrary detection. Then, the fact that the ear is a leading edge detector has been understood for roughly 100 years now, making &quot;1/100 th of a wavelength&quot; perhaps not such a big deal. It is nice that this performance ability by the human has been clearly demonstrated, but the headline is inexcusably misleading, and is already providing fodder for the audiophile &quot;I told you so&quot; bunch= who simply doesn&#39;t understand what it means. And, in any case, who would use an FFT to detect such a thing? Rather use a set of bandpass filters, eh? On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Peter Meijer <a href=3D"mailto:feedback@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">&lt;feedb= ack@xxxxxxxx&gt;</a> wrote: </pre> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <pre>Indeed this relates to a discussion that we had 9 years ago, <a href=3D"http://www.auditory.org/mhonarc/2004/msg00145.html" target=3D= "_blank">http://www.auditory.org/mhonarc/2004/msg00145.html</a> and that formed the basis of my old web page on beating the frequency-time uncertainty principle, <a href=3D"http://www.seeingwithsound.com/freqtime.htm" target=3D"_blank= ">http://www.seeingwithsound.com/freqtime.htm</a> Best regards, Peter Meijer Seeing with Sound - The vOICe <a href=3D"http://www.seeingwithsound.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.see= ingwithsound.com</a> </pre> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <pre>Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 07:43:35 +0000 From: &quot;Beerends, J.G. (John)&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:john.beerends@xxxxxxxx= .NL" target=3D"_blank">&lt;john.beerends@xxxxxxxx&gt;</a> To: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LISTS.MCGILL.CA</a> Subject: Re: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: Research For discrimination the uncertainty limit does not exist, one can build discriminator devices that go below the uncertainty limit in both the time and frequency domain, the uncertainty limit is only a measure for the sprea= d (Delta) in both domains (DfDt&gt;1), it is not a limit to what extent they = can be discriminated. One can also build a device that measures the frequency o= f a sine wave with an accuracy below the uncertainty limit by exploiting a-priori knowledge, i.e. if I know that the signal I am measuring is a short cut out of an infinite duration sine wave of a certain amplitude I ca= n measure the frequency as accurate as I want. John Beerends </pre> </blockquote> <pre> </pre> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <pre>-----Original Message----- From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">mailto:AUDIT= ORY@xxxxxxxx</a>] On Behalf Of Kevin Austin Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 5:07 PM To: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LISTS.MCGILL.CA</a> Subject: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: Research Comments? </pre> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <pre><a href=3D"http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncert= ainty-principle.html" target=3D"_blank">http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-= fourier-uncertainty-principle.html</a> (Phys.org)-For the first time, physicists have found that humans can discriminate a sound&#39;s frequency (related to a note&#39;s pitch) and ti= ming (whether a note comes before or after another note) more than 10 times better than the limit imposed by the Fourier uncertainty principle. Not surprisingly, some of the subjects with the best listening precision were musicians, but even non-musicians could exceed the uncertainty limit. The results rule out the majority of auditory processing brain algorithms that have been proposed, since only a few models can match this impressive human performance. </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre> </pre> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <pre>Read more at: <a href=3D"http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle= .html#jCp" target=3D"_blank">http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-unc= ertainty-principle.html#jCp</a> </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre>Thanks Kevin This e-mail and its contents are subject to the DISCLAIMER at <a href=3D"http://www.tno.nl/emaildisclaimer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.= tno.nl/emaildisclaimer</a> </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre> </pre> </blockquote> <br> <br> <div>-- <br> <table> <tbody> <tr> <td> <div> <p> <table style=3D"color:black;font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt;border-co= llapse:collapse" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"= 400"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign=3D"top" width=3D"400" colspan=3D"2"> =A0 </td> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D"font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt;font-weight:bold;m= argin-bottom:0px" valign=3D"top" width=3D"400" colspan=3D"2"> Bastian Epp <= /td> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D"color:rgb(155,155,155);font-family:Arial;font-size= :8pt;margin-bottom:0px" valign=3D"top" width=3D"400" colspan=3D"2"> Assista= nt Professor </td> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D"padding-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt= ;margin-bottom:0px;min-height:0px" valign=3D"top" width=3D"400" colspan=3D"= 2"> ELEK VIP </td> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D"font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt;margin-bottom:0px"= valign=3D"top" width=3D"400" colspan=3D"2"> DTU Electrical Engineering </t= d> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D"line-height:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-bottom:0px= ;font-size:8pt;margin-top:0px;border-bottom-color:rgb(174,174,174);border-b= ottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid" valign=3D"top" width=3D"400" col= span=3D"2"> =A0 </td> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D"padding-top:8px" valign=3D"top" width=3D"350"> <p style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt;font-wei= ght:bold"> Technical University of Denmark</p> </td> <td style=3D"text-align:right;padding-top:8px;font-family:Arial= " valign=3D"top" rowspan=3D"10" width=3D"50" align=3D"right"> <img src=3D"c= id:part1.08010709.00060308@xxxxxxxx" width=3D"36" height=3D"53"> </td> </tr> <tr style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt"> <td> Department of Electrical Engineering </td> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt"> =D8rsteds Plads </td> </tr> <tr style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt"> <td> Building 352 </td> </tr> <tr> <td style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt"> 2800 Kgs. Lyngby </td> </tr> <tr style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt"> <td> Direct +45 45253953 </td> </tr> <tr style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt"> <td> <a href=3D"mailto:bepp@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">b= epp@xxxxxxxx</a> </td> </tr> <tr style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Arial;font-size:8pt"> <td> <a style=3D"color:blue" href=3D"http://www.elektro.dtu.dk/= " target=3D"_blank">www.elektro.dtu.dk/</a> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <p></p> <p> =A0</p> </p></div> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </div> </div> </blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div>James D. (jj) John= ston</div><div>Independent Audio and Electroacoustics Consultant</div> --089e012280fcef5eda04d62c1b0c-- --089e012280fcef5edd04d62c1b0d Content-Type: image/gif; name="DTU_email_logo_01.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <part1.08010709.00060308@xxxxxxxx> X-Attachment-Id: d090a9dda096e724_0.1.1 R0lGODlhJAA1ANUAAP39/acmJpUAALOzs/Pz8+vNzeS9va6ursvLy7VKSuTk5KCgoKw0NNLS0sNr a9jY2O7W1fTl5ZgAAKIbG5CQkMyCgtqkpKqqqvz5+Z6entOTlN2rq7lTU7xbW8p9fPHd3dGNjaWl pZmZmdaZmfnx8ZsKCvv7+/fr6+G0tObCwrm5ucZxcfX19enp6e7u7vv09Jubm/ju7s+IiJ8SEunH x9ifn7A9Pr5fX5SUlPj4+JeXl5aWlpMAAJWVlZkAAP///yH5BAAAAAAALAAAAAAkADUAAAb/wB8h oxMZjSrXD3DZHY+7UO7Q6z1+v9yit8hhh8UeDqejhAiAEIXyXMNYhx3umt12v5kdDPFowEQUKj8P CAghOjohhQ0mTXNYWlxeQnkwBFgIFD0HWFgDVZxYTHJ0kXeUeko/Cj07FwCdAzibnaOPdZJ4qVis USaxs6FLjqV2k0O7q60hv57BtcSQxrowqr3MwLSi0binyNW8y80/strDpNK5qODKvtnCtsXq39bi 79Do3ceV9e7O5vHSeeMXzh+5Z9vymdqX7Nq4cvC4LaTWD9u/iAqnrVPVAIcrWBfx4WjwBcaOgTpg KCDgggqOAZ0OmvuhYtYAAAAaVAkBEoyI/wwZTOrAoSAmxJisily4YIQCgk4EYMwaQ2ZPTHJrhGFp MHSNxwGTlrRQQJZsi0tXXZi9+sMFIQQNWrCdS7eu3bt48+rdy7dv3wgk/JqAgBfCjRkTbmx4gRdA CgcMSiRAQfeEgxI8JAjgwSNAhQJ0P2hgIIGHgNICOBDuFKFCANM+YsfeLIGBAw0WLIzwkADzadk+ SpdYAbqCb+DINXNebloCcuCob1hI4EPAc9moJcyYUR329eoCbIDAYiCB99kCBCQeUeBEDAgbVgTY /Ht2ZwtsQTBIn35Cgg0x0IWBATcEgJoAAazA2FwAWMDAfwviNWCBMkTo14WhReDXC6DdFf/BZTM4 UMA4dkXgwXyqhdbBDJmV5kOCBmAwVwEVMMDiaQJIRkNMJMjAonPY0RfADSCgYMAIkPnQHHSnOaDh Cj9+Z59pmy35nWYlcICCDelJSd9pmtEH5HObBTACFhtw0GWQEiQ4Agop0GBADR4woKR1sm1mwwgW /rABA1TyMAMHKchIVwEOTEAfDxPIABJbL9RgAwc1aJhXDBtAJsMJGHY64wd+nWDAo6FxIEGWKZBa FwSJ8mDDjnNB4MGPpdVWZGBXYZCCBr1lVp0EHcCKRQxQnhccff5VAAIIMnQwn5WxocYBqDVEKaVy zOF5JQ/DpZBAemMyKaYEpUGLXHoM4Oc8pw2aAbfZiwnIYAANBexa4HF5IjjeVQbYEOgEIhrKFgAf uAZuZxqo2gkGGgRggwYB5oXBBglMsAKunQQBADs= --089e012280fcef5edd04d62c1b0d--


This message came from the mail archive
/var/www/postings/2013/
maintained by:
DAn Ellis <dpwe@ee.columbia.edu>
Electrical Engineering Dept., Columbia University