Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Perceptual basis of evolving western musical styles From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Pablo_Hern=E1n_Rodriguez_Zivic?= <=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Pablo_Hern=E1n_Rodriguez_Zivic?=> Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 20:18:25 -0300 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--e89a8f6471e508eabc04de98a7e0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello Robert, I agree with you that it is very important to get feedback from the musicological and music-theoretic communities. Even though I work with a musician on these matters, it is really hard to cover all technical details of the three aspects of the research: mathematical, cognitive and musical. Regarding the composers, we noted what you said, and reported it in the Supporting Information. It is true that the Baroque period seems to be under represented. However, if Bach copied the Italian work, then some of the statistics should kept. On the other hand, the melody perception is an issue by itself. It is in fact something we can not control, since we don't know how data was pre processed. Depending on the frequency of the cases you mention, it could perfectly bias the analysis. We believe that it is not the case, because we made two controls. The first one is published in the Supporting information with an alternative corpus, and the second one is a preliminary result with a corpus which consists only of melodies. Anyway, that is not a guarantee of anything, but seems to point in the same direction as our intuition. Lastly, and not less important, I want to thank you for the work you put in your mail. Not only for the examples, which were really good, but for the criticism on the corpus. As you say, this feedback is indispensable for the growth of this line of research. Best wishes for you, Pablo On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Robert O Gjerdingen < r-gjerdingen@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Pablo, > > Thanks for your paper on the "Perceptual basis of evolving western > musical styles." I was especially happy to see your engagement with the IR > theory of my own teacher, Eugene Narmour. > > I know it can be tiresome for people to complain about the corpus, > but after downloading the Peachnote corpus I did notice some very odd > things (admitting that I may have misread or misunderstood the Excel files > for each musical era). There appear to be 600+ composer names for > "Romantic" and just 4 for "Baroque." Of those four, three are German > protestants, one is French, and none are Italians, even though 17th and > 18th-century musical style was almost entirely determined by Italian > composers (Bach, who accounts for %53 of "Baroque" pieces in the corpus, > assiduously copied Italian manuscripts to learn their famous art, whereas > the Italians did not even know he was alive). The "Classical" set, by > contrast, has 15 names, almost half of which most musicians would put in > the "Romantic" box: Schubert, Weber, Rossini, Mendelssohn, Auber, etc. It > may be worth pointing out that only "Romantic" was a term known and used as > a style designation by any of the composers from 1700-1900. The > Romantic-Classical-Baroque terminology only becomes widely used in the > 1920s. > > Interval counts are not a straightforward calculation in musical > scores because of the frequent streaming effects and the importance of > discontiguous tones. Take, for instance, the following example by Bach from > his first suite for solo cello: > > > > Perceptually, there are a couple of large intervals at the very beginning, > and then one realizes that the "musical" intervals are within each of three > auditory streams. For ex., the B3 at the beginning connects to repetitions > of that tone and then ascends one step to C4. This is the small-interval > phenomenon that you mention as characteristic of this era, but would the > Peachnote corpus have registered this emergent perceptual phenomenon? > > You also mention Gestalt pattern recognition. Take, for instance, the > following excerpt from a Haydn string quartet: > > > Listeners tend to hear the tonic in the melody of measure 1 "go" to the > second scale degree of m. 2, and then to the 3rd scale degree of m. 3. In > Gestalt terms, the evident similarity of those three tones helps to group > them as a salient foreground against the background of more rapid tones. > Note, however, that there is no small interval connecting degree 2 to > degree 3. The "step" that connects them is an emergent property of the > figural complex. > > I've gone on at length because, since corpus studies offer so much to > computational musicology and music theory, it is important that pioneering > studies like yours get some feedback from the musicological and > music-theoretic communities. > > Best wishes, > Bob Gjerdingen > Northwestern Univ. > > -- http://pablozivic.com.ar/ --e89a8f6471e508eabc04de98a7e0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Hello Robert,<div><br></div><div style>I agree with you th= at it is very important to get feedback from the musicological and music-th= eoretic communities. Even though I work with a musician on these matters, i= t is really hard to cover all technical details of the three aspects of the= research: mathematical, cognitive and musical.</div> <div style><br></div><div style>Regarding the composers, we noted what you = said, and reported it in the Supporting Information. It is true that the Ba= roque period seems to be under represented. However, if Bach copied the Ita= lian work, then some of the statistics should kept.</div> <div style><br></div><div style>On the other hand, the melody perception is= an issue by itself. It is in fact something we can not control, since we d= on't know how data was pre processed. Depending on the frequency of the= cases you mention, it could perfectly bias the analysis. We believe that i= t is not the case, because we made two controls. The first one is published= in the Supporting information with an alternative corpus, and the second o= ne is a preliminary result with a corpus which consists only of melodies.</= div> <div style><br></div><div style>Anyway, that is not a guarantee of anything= , but seems to point in the same direction as our intuition.</div><div styl= e><br></div><div style>Lastly, and not less important, I want to thank you = for the work you put in your mail. Not only for the examples, which were re= ally good, but for the criticism on the corpus. As you say, this feedback i= s indispensable for the growth of this line of research.</div> <div style><br></div><div style>Best wishes for you,<br></div><div style><b= r></div><div style>Pablo</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div= class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Robert O Gjerdingen = <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:r-gjerdingen@xxxxxxxx" targ= et=3D"_blank">r-gjerdingen@xxxxxxxx</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div> <div><font><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"> <div>Pablo,<br> <br> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Thanks for your paper on the "Perceptual basis o= f evolving western musical styles." I was especially happy to see your= engagement with the IR theory of my own teacher, Eugene Narmour.<br> <br> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I know it can be tiresome for people to complain abou= t the corpus, but after downloading the Peachnote corpus I did notice some = very odd things (admitting that I may have misread or misunderstood the Exc= el files for each musical era). There appear to be 600+ composer names for "Romantic" and just 4 for "Baroq= ue." Of those four, three are German protestants, one is French, and n= one are Italians, even though 17th and 18th-century musical style was almos= t entirely determined by Italian composers (Bach, who accounts for %53 of "Baroque" pieces in the corpus, assiduously = copied Italian manuscripts to learn their famous art, whereas the Italians = did not even know he was alive). The "Classical" set, by contrast= , has 15 names, almost half of which most musicians would put in the "Romantic" box:=A0 Schubert, Weber, Rossini, Me= ndelssohn, Auber, etc.=A0 It may be worth pointing out that only "Roma= ntic" was a term known and used as a style designation by any of the c= omposers from 1700-1900. The Romantic-Classical-Baroque terminology only becomes widely used in the 1920s.<br> <br> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Interval counts are not a straightforward calculation= in musical scores because of the frequent streaming effects and the import= ance of discontiguous tones. Take, for instance, the following example by B= ach from his first suite for solo cello:<br> <br> </div> </span></font></div> <div><font><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"> <div><br> <br> Perceptually, there are a couple of large intervals at the very beginning, = and then one realizes that the "musical" intervals are within eac= h of three auditory streams. For ex., the B3 at the beginning connects to r= epetitions of that tone and then ascends one step to C4. This is the small-interval phenomenon that you mention as char= acteristic of this era, but would the Peachnote corpus have registered this= emergent perceptual phenomenon?<br> <br> You also mention Gestalt pattern recognition. Take, for instance, the follo= wing excerpt from a Haydn string quartet:<br> <br> </div> </span></font></div> <div><font><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"> <div><br> Listeners tend to hear the tonic in the melody of measure 1 "go" = to the second scale degree of m. 2, and then to the 3rd scale degree of m. = 3.=A0 In Gestalt terms, the evident similarity of those three tones helps t= o group them as a salient foreground against the background of more rapid tones. Note, however, that there is no small = interval connecting degree 2 to degree 3. The "step" that connect= s them is an emergent property of the figural complex.<br> <br> I've gone on at length because, since corpus studies offer so much to c= omputational musicology and music theory, it is important that pioneering s= tudies like yours get some feedback from the musicological and music-theore= tic communities. <br> <br> Best wishes,<br> Bob Gjerdingen<br> Northwestern Univ.<br> <br> </div> </span></font></div> </div> </blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><a href=3D"h= ttp://pablozivic.com.ar/" target=3D"_blank">http://pablozivic.com.ar/</a> </div> --e89a8f6471e508eabc04de98a7e0--