Re: [AUDITORY] Note durations in music ][ (Pierre Divenyi )

Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Note durations in music ][
From:    Pierre Divenyi  <pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx>
Date:    Thu, 20 Jun 2013 22:11:36 -0700

Kevin, I have two comments. First, and this is something the 1960s music-information theorists (e.g., Moles) have recognized: "events" (call them notes or anything else) happen when something abruptly (within limits) changes: my definition of change is in the modulation domain (AM and/or FM). This makes the duration dimension pretty second-order, as Dick Warner also noted.=20 Second, yes, there are rhythm theories and I want to single out the pretty interesting treatise on rhythm by a Mozarteum theory professor, Friedrich Neumann: "Die Zeitgestalt, eine Lehre vom musikalischen Rhythmus" (1959, two slim volumes). This theory takes rhythm far beyond meter/taps and defines it in terms of the "event's" function in the flow of the musical piece in time and across spectral space. I highly recommend it even for readers of not more than basic German because everything is illustrated and the second volume contains only examples. -Pierre On 6/20/13 11:12 AM, "Kevin Austin" <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >I still remain confounded partly by the question, as I perceive it as >being incomplete. > >I do not hear music / melody as being 'notes in a line', and cannot >abstract melody as a sequence of durations of notes in a piece. I hear >this as being at a sub-vocabulary level. In written language, something >similar to working out the frequency and order of circles, three-quarter >circles and semicircles, to quarter-circles in letters in a printed text. > >The letters o, pdbqg, c, e, s, m, n, r, j etc, using this shape in >progressively incomplete form. > >The tune Happy Birthday, played staccato or legato, will have the same >identity. As an instrumental performer, I played this as long-short long, >but in singing with untrained people, the rhythm is short-short long. In >the short-short-long version, the rhythmic isomorphic nature to the Star >Spangled Banner is lost. [I have a conflated version of Happy Birthday >for anyone interested.]. > > >I am not an ethnomusicologist. > >In the example: > >Malladi brothers - Guru Poornima - 2 July 2012 >starting around 5:25 in order to meet the criteria of the request, for >me, the duration of the 'notes' [sic] is entirely hierarchical. At this >point in the piece, the very short notes of the performers are ornamental >to the principal note. >Observe the audience at around 7'10, and the singers throughout placing >the 'rhythm' within the broader underlying cycle. > >I seem to understand [after about 9'15], that the shorter notes are >structural at the end of the song. Starting in the second song, c 10'00, >there appear to be multiple interpretations of the structure of the >underlying cycle [watch the performers and audience members' hands]. > >I think these [kritis] are both by one of the most famous Carnatic >composers Thyagaraja. > > > > >It is noted by western music theorists that there is no large body of >theoretical writing on the subject of "rhythm" [sic] in western music. >Even the touchstone of intelligent research, Wikipedia, does not seem to >be able to unshackle itself: >conflating rhythm with pulse, beat and meter. The ancient Cooper & Meyer, >"The Rhythmic Structure of Music", University of Chicago, 1960, ISBN >0-226-11522-4, seems from another century. > > >Kevin > > > > >On 2013, Jun 16, at 1:00 AM, Kevin Austin <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx> >wrote: > >> Having pondered the question and the responses for a few days, I still >>am not clear on the core issue. For me this is partly tied up with the >>lack of definitions of the term "note". In my classes I try to avoid the >>word without specific context to delimit the meaning. >>=20 >> There are two [or more] possible interpretations here: >> [1] onset time to onset time >> [2] duration of the sounding element >> [2a] adding the duration of any non-sounding element[s] -- rests >>or silences >>=20 >> There is not a great deal of solo monophonic music in the classical >>western music repertoire compared with the quantity of music that has >>more than one pitch sounding at one time. >>=20 >> Within the solo monophonic repertoire, composed music which is beyond >>being a very simple tune, eg God Save the Queen played on a flute, is >>very often working to create the illusion of more than one pitch at a >>time. To see this in a very simple / complex example, take the Bach >>Prelude in C Major from book One of the Well-Tempered Clavier. It can be >>played with one finger. It can also be heard as a five-voice homophonic >>composition. >>=20 >> Since the well-known repertoire is so small, it is likely a matter of >>going to some much more relatively obscure sources, such as Johann Quantz >>=20 >>,_Johann_Jo >>achim) >> or other solo =E9tudes. Being technical studies, they may not contain the >>kind of information that you are looking for. >>=20 >> Another approach is to take the instrument in the context of being a >>soloist in an ensemble. Depending upon the degree of precision you need, >>determining the start of the onset can also be a problem, the sound of a >>flute or trumpet for example having elements in common with determining >>the start-time of a c-v syllable such as "too". >>=20 >> Can you provide a little more precision. >>=20 >> Thanks >>=20 >> Kevin >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 6/13/13, "Patel, Aniruddh D." <a.patel@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> Dear list, >>> =20 >>> I=B9m trying to find papers which report measurements of two aspects of >>>note duration in solo instrumental monophonic music (e.g., recordings >>>of solo violin, cello, trumpet, clarinet, flute, etc. =AD not piano, >>>guitar, or other instruments that can play multiple notes >>>simultaneously). >>> =20 >>> 1. The average duration of notes in a piece >>> 2. A histogram of note durations in the piece >>> =20 >>> Thus for example this solo cello prelude by JS Bach last about 4 >>>minutes and contains N notes (anybody know?), so the average note >>>duration in this piece is about N/240 notes/sec. >>> =20 >>> >>> =20 >>> If one could measure the duration of each note in this recording, then >>>one could plot the histogram of note durations in the piece. >>> =20 >>> Is anyone aware of such data for any solo monophonic instrument? >>>Musical style doesn=B9t matter (can be classical, folk, etc.). >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> =20 >>> Ani Patel >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> Aniruddh D. Patel >>> Associate Professor >>> Dept. of Psychology >>> Tufts University >>> 490 Boston Ave. >>> Medford, MA 02115 >>> =20 >>> a.patel@xxxxxxxx >>> >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20

This message came from the mail archive
maintained by:
DAn Ellis <>
Electrical Engineering Dept., Columbia University