Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] How to speak to people about hearing loss and high sound pressure levels From: rif <rif@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 18:14:43 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--001a1133a57a5849b104e9360227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have and use the Etymotics, but I'm a little dissatisfied that they are only 12 dB. Is anything non-custom going to be more than 12 dB? rif On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Christine Rankovic < rankovic@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Dear List:**** > > ** ** > > For rock concerts, bands will probably not turn down the sound level any > time soon because this is so much a part of the music culture, and lawsui= ts > haven=92t worked yet. Therefore, it may be worth considering providing > =93acoustically-tuned=94 earplugs to each ticketholder at concert venues > (regular foam earplugs are unacceptable for concerts because they distort > the sound too much). The act of providing the earplugs sends a clear > message to concert goers and people like =93freebies.=94 It seems to me = that > earplug distribution could best be accomplished by venue owners, but > hearing-preservation advocates could begin to pressure venues by > distributing earplugs outside the venue.**** > > ** ** > > I have used non-custom acoustically-tuned earplugs from Etymotic Research > as recently as last week=92s Jeff Beck concert here in Boston can attest = that > they preserve the sound very well. **** > > ** ** > > Christine Rankovic, PhD**** > > Articulation Inc.**** > > Newton, MA**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto: > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx *On Behalf Of *Virginie van Wassenhove > *Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2013 12:13 AM > *To:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > *Subject:* Re: How to speak to people about hearing loss and high sound > pressure levels**** > > ** ** > > Dear Kevin, **** > > ** ** > > This is indeed a very good question.**** > > ** ** > > I don't know the legislation where you are, but most European countries > have one for sound levels in public environments. However, most of the ti= me > it is completely unrelated to the limits imposed on workplaces, and has > actually little to do with health and safety at all. For instance, in > France, the level is limited to 105 dB-A (Leq for 15 min, 120 dB-SPL peak= ). > No doubt that there's enough in this to induce hearing loss.**** > > ** ** > > The crazy thing in all this is that these loud public event generally > don't run themselves by themselves, and the public is generally not left = on > its own. There is a lot of staff, and while some of them can wear ear > plugs, a fair number of them can't because they must hear orders from > customers, or because they have the hand on the volume knob and are > supposed to check what's going on sound-wise...**** > > ** ** > > I used to teach to these guys, sound technicians/engineers, a short > introduction to hearing. What I remember is that there's a lot of myth an= d > legend in the field: they know next to nothing about how to preserve thei= r > ear even though this is their primary professional tool (deaf sound > engineers don't have the best reputation). Backstage, they hear things li= ke > "ears are like a muscle, you need to train them: the louder the sound, th= e > stronger your ears become". Actually once you've killed that myth (by > playing simulations of hearing loss, cochlear-implant, tinnitus, > hyperacusis...), they get pretty concerned. And with the concern for thei= r > own health, you may expect that they would be more concerned about the > public's health.**** > > ** ** > > Now, only when this knowledge is ubiquitous in the profession will the > tech guys have the guts to tell the producer/employer that they shouldn't > do it. In the meantime the only thing that can bend these people, is the > prospect of getting brought to court for rendering someone deaf.**** > > ** ** > > And actually it already happened. I only know of examples in France, but > it must have happened in America too. In France they talk about a concert > of Ben Harper in Grenoble (29 March 2000) where 6 people in the audience > ended up in hospital for ear damage, and one of them attacked the > organizers in court (I added a bit more details about in the PS). I haven= 't > been able to check more, but the legend says he won, and the whole benefi= ce > from the concert went in the payment of compensations for that person. > Since, concerts are apparently limited at 95 dB-A in Grenoble. People don= 't > seem to have noticed, but nobody was sent again to the hospital. Another > example: U2, Marseille July 1993, same story. I'm sure there's enough > material to scare the organizers out of doing the stupid thing.**** > > ** ** > > So I think the right discourse is to stress that keeping levels low is no= t > about making the old neighbours less cranky, it's not about being nice... > it's about health and safety, about preserving your professional tools (b= e > they employee or your own ears) and about running your business in a > sustainable way. The last straw is that the only argument against turning > down the level is that "people won't enjoy is as much". But while there's > actually no proof of that at all, there quite a large literature on NIHL.= .. > (more on that in the PPS)**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > -Etienne**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > PS: More about the case in Grenoble. Again this is what I've heard from > sound engineers. These big concerts use directional systems (line array, = or > phased array, or "system V-DOSC"). The common problem that sound engineer= s > face is that there's a large crowd, and sound needs to travel and gets > attenuated while doing so. With a directional system, you can try to have= a > more homogenous sound level in the audience: you jack up the higher beams > to reach afar, but keep the lower beams relatively softer to avoid > deafening (instantly) the audience close to the stage. Nice on paper, but > if you mistune the system (which may apparently have been the case in > Grenoble), you may do worse than good. And even worse, if you don't have > that system but are used to it, you may forget that you should not have 9= 5 > dB at the console at the back of the audience...**** > > ** ** > > PPS: Regarding how enjoyable loud music is, I think there is quite a larg= e > source of evidence that loudness can be subjective and context dependent. > Actually this is a trick that experienced sound engineers sometime use: > when a musician thinks is not loud enough, for instance, the right thing = to > do is to lower his level, then when he/she's unhappy, put it back to wher= e > it was... that generally makes one happy musician...**** > > ** ** > > -- **** > > Etienne Gaudrain, PhD**** > > UMCG, Afdeling KNO**** > > BB20**** > > PO Box 30.001**** > > 9700 RB Groningen**** > > Netherlands**** > > ** ** > > Room P3.236**** > > Phone +31 5036 13290**** > > Skype egaudrain**** > > ** ** > > Note: emails to this address are limited to 10 MB. To send larger attachm= ents, please use egaudrain.cam@xxxxxxxx**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > On 13 October 2013 07:09, Kevin Austin <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx> wrote:= * > *** > > An on-going topic -- very high level [dB] sounds, hearing loss, personal > and societal responsibility. > > Once or twice a year I am invited and go to an event where the sustained > sound pressure [dB] levels will be in excess of 95dB, and often into the > 105 - 110+ dB range. I am usually long gone before the levels have drifte= d > up to this point, however they usually start in the 85-90dB range. I use = a > combination of Vaseline [petroleum jelly], and water- [spit-] soaked pape= r > tissues / Kleenex, to seal my ear canals. At the last two events I left, > about 20% of the people were babies or children under 7-9. They were > brought close to the speaker stacks, and the younger children enjoyed > playing in front of the speakers. > > My question is not one about NIHL etc, which is documented, but rather on= e > of how to speak to the people responsible, before and/or after the event > about the damage that is being caused by these environments. If this were= a > work place, there would be laws, rules, regulations and ways of changing > the behavior. In these social environments, rules and regulations don't > apply. And I'm talking 3 or more hours of continuous 105+dB. > > There are currently two students in our university electroacoustic studie= s > program who have reported their hearing condition to me in some detail, > along with audiograms, and possible hyperacusis. Discussing this with man= y > younger people tends towards the "teenage invincibility syndrome" [will > never happen to me], and in older people, there is a general ignorance or > lack of understanding, often paired with an attitude that indicates, "if = it > really is a problem, there would be laws about it". There are. But, in my > experience, there is a fundamental ignorance of what happens, and what ha= s > been happening for the past 35 - 40 years. > > As the professionals in the field, what can be done? and how can it be > done? Is it a matter of this "silent plague", simply eating up the hearin= g > of those who are under 40 such that they will not be able to hear in 15 - > 25 years. > > Recently, this appeared: > > Thu, 09/12/2013 > >> Blake Wilson, Graeme Clark, and Ingeborg Hochmair were awarded the > Lasker Award this week for their contributions to the development of the > cochlear implant. The Lasker Award is essentially the American Nobel priz= e, > and this is an incredible recognition of not only the importance of > cochlear implant technology but also a much broader acknowledgment of the > importance of hearing and communication by the entire scientific communit= y. > There will be several events over the next few months building on this > recognition with interviews with the Lasker awardees, a dedicated one-hou= r > show on PBS with Charlie Rose and Eric Kandel on hearing, and finally a > two-day workshop sponsored by the Institute of Medicine on hearing loss i= n > older adults in January. > > It is noted that this seems to be mostly about cochlea-based hearing loss > in older adults. > > > Other items on stem cell research growing back hair cells have been seen > in the media. However, these reports do not address a major cause of the > problem, exposure to high dB levels. As I understand it, this developing > technology may have little effect on tinnitus caused by nerve damage. > > Are there ways to have the media take cognizance of and report on the > dangerous environments which persist? > > As professionals, is there any individual or group responsibility > regarding making this better known and the [likely] consequences more > clearly understood? Is this like the cigarette situation where the 'evil' > is not only socially acceptable, but expected so that the event has 'stre= et > cred'? Club owners and Rave organizers want blood-letting levels, "becaus= e > the customers want it". > > > Kevin**** > > ** ** > --001a1133a57a5849b104e9360227 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">I have and use the Etymotics, but I'm a little dissati= sfied that they are only 12 dB. =A0 Is anything non-custom going to be more= than 12 dB?<div><br></div><div>rif</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D= "gmail_extra"> <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Christi= ne Rankovic <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:rankovic@xxxxxxxx= om" target=3D"_blank">rankovic@xxxxxxxx</a>></span> wrote:<br><b= lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px = #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm= al"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","s= ans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dear List:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class= =3D"MsoNormal"> <span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-= serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma= l"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sa= ns-serif";color:#1f497d">For rock concerts, bands will probably not tu= rn down the sound level any time soon because this is so much a part of the= music culture, and lawsuits haven=92t worked yet.=A0 Therefore, it may be = worth considering providing =93acoustically-tuned=94 earplugs to each ticke= tholder at concert venues (regular foam earplugs are unacceptable for conce= rts because they distort the sound too much).=A0 The act of providing the e= arplugs sends a clear message to concert goers and people like =93freebies.= =94=A0 It seems to me that earplug distribution could best be accomplished = by venue owners, but hearing-preservation advocates could begin to pressure= venues by distributing earplugs outside the venue.<u></u><u></u></span></p= > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><= /p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"= ;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I have used non-custom= acoustically-tuned earplugs from Etymotic Research as recently as last wee= k=92s Jeff Beck concert here in Boston can attest that they preserve the so= und very well. =A0<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><= /p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"= ;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Christine Rankovic, Ph= D<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Articulation Inc.<u></u><= u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon= t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Newton, = MA<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><= /p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"= ;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><= /p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.= 0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"= ;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s= ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> AUDITORY= - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= .MCGILL.CA" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>] <b>On Behalf Of= </b>Virginie van Wassenhove<br> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 14, 2013 12:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mai= lto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a= ><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: How to speak to people about hearing loss and high= sound pressure levels<u></u><u></u></span></p> </div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u>= </p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Kevin, <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">This = is indeed a very good question.<u></u><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal">I don't know the legislation where you are, but most Eur= opean countries have one for sound levels in public environments. However, = most of the time it is completely unrelated to the limits imposed on workpl= aces, and has actually little to do with health and safety at all. For inst= ance, in France, the level is limited to 105 dB-A (Leq for 15 min, 120 dB-S= PL peak). No doubt that there's enough in this to induce hearing loss.<= u></u><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal">The crazy thing in all this is that these loud public event = generally don't run themselves by themselves, and the public is general= ly not left on its own. There is a lot of staff, and while some of them can= wear ear plugs, a fair number of them can't because they must hear ord= ers from customers, or because they have the hand on the volume knob and ar= e supposed to check what's going on sound-wise...<u></u><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal">I used to teach to these guys, sound technicians/engineers, = a short introduction to hearing. What I remember is that there's a lot = of myth and legend in the field: they know next to nothing about how to pre= serve their ear even though this is their primary professional tool (deaf s= ound engineers don't have the best reputation). Backstage, they hear th= ings like "ears are like a muscle, you need to train them: the louder = the sound, the stronger your ears become". Actually once you've ki= lled that myth (by playing simulations of hearing loss, cochlear-implant, t= innitus, hyperacusis...), they get pretty concerned. And with the concern f= or their own health, you may expect that they would be more concerned about= the public's health.<u></u><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal">Now, only when this knowledge is ubiquitous in the professio= n will the tech guys have the guts to tell the producer/employer that they = shouldn't do it. In the meantime the only thing that can bend these peo= ple, is the prospect of getting brought to court for rendering someone deaf= .<u></u><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal">And actually it already happened. I only know of examples in= France, but it must have happened in America too. In France they talk abou= t a concert of Ben Harper in Grenoble (29 March 2000) where 6 people in the= audience ended up in hospital for ear damage, and one of them attacked the= organizers in court (I added a bit more details about in the PS). I haven&= #39;t been able to check more, but the legend says he won, and the whole be= nefice from the concert went in the payment of compensations for that perso= n. Since, concerts are apparently limited at 95 dB-A in Grenoble. People do= n't seem to have noticed, but nobody was sent again to the hospital. An= other example: U2, Marseille July 1993, same story. I'm sure there'= s enough material to scare the organizers out of doing the stupid thing.<u>= </u><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal">So I think the right discourse is to stress that keeping lev= els low is not about making the old neighbours less cranky, it's not ab= out being nice... it's about health and safety, about preserving your p= rofessional tools (be they employee or your own ears) and about running you= r business in a sustainable way. The last straw is that the only argument a= gainst turning down the level is that "people won't enjoy is as mu= ch". But while there's actually no proof of that at all, there qui= te a large literature on NIHL... (more on that in the PPS)<u></u><u></u></p= > </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Etie= nne<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p= ></div><div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma= l">PS: More about the case in Grenoble. Again this is what I've heard f= rom sound engineers. These big concerts use directional systems (line array= , or phased array, or "system V-DOSC"). The common problem that s= ound engineers face is that there's a large crowd, and sound needs to t= ravel and gets attenuated while doing so. With a directional system, you ca= n try to have a more homogenous sound level in the audience: you jack up th= e higher beams to reach afar, but keep the lower beams relatively softer to= avoid deafening (instantly) the audience close to the stage. Nice on paper= , but if you mistune the system (which may apparently have been the case in= Grenoble), you may do worse than good. And even worse, if you don't ha= ve that system but are used to it, you may forget that you should not have = 95 dB at the console at the back of the audience...<u></u><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal">PPS: Regarding how enjoyable loud music is, I think there is= quite a large source of evidence that loudness can be subjective and conte= xt dependent. Actually this is a trick that experienced sound engineers som= etime use: when a musician thinks is not loud enough, for instance, the rig= ht thing to do is to lower his level, then when he/she's unhappy, put i= t back to where it was... that generally makes one happy musician...<u></u>= <u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div><div><pre>-- <= u></u><u></u></pre><pre>Etienne Gaudrain, PhD<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>UMCG,= Afdeling KNO<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>BB20<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>PO Box 3= 0.001<u></u><u></u></pre> <pre>9700 RB Groningen<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>Netherlands<u></u><u></u></p= re><pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre><pre>Room P3.236<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>Pho= ne <a href=3D"tel:%2B31%205036%2013290" value=3D"+31503613290" target=3D"_b= lank">+31 5036 13290</a><u></u><u></u></pre> <pre>Skype egaudrain<u></u><u></u></pre><pre><u></u>=A0<u></u></pre><pre>No= te: emails to this address are limited to 10 MB. To send larger attachments= , please use <a href=3D"mailto:egaudrain.cam@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">e= gaudrain.cam@xxxxxxxx</a>.<u></u><u></u></pre> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div></div><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><di= v><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 13 October 2013 07:09, Kevin Austin <<a href= =3D"mailto:kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx= ron.ca</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">An on-going topic -- very high level [dB] sounds, he= aring loss, personal and societal responsibility.<br><br>Once or twice a ye= ar I am invited and go to an event where the sustained sound pressure [dB] = levels will be in excess of 95dB, and often into the 105 - 110+ dB range. I= am usually long gone before the levels have drifted up to this point, howe= ver they usually start in the 85-90dB range. I use a combination of Vaselin= e [petroleum jelly], and water- [spit-] soaked paper tissues / Kleenex, to = seal my ear canals. At the last two events I left, about 20% of the people = were babies or children under 7-9. They were brought close to the speaker s= tacks, and the younger children enjoyed playing in front of the speakers.<b= r> <br>My question is not one about NIHL etc, which is documented, but rather = one of how to speak to the people responsible, before and/or after the even= t about the damage that is being caused by these environments. If this were= a work place, there would be laws, rules, regulations and ways of changing= the behavior. In these social environments, rules and regulations don'= t apply. And I'm talking 3 or more hours of continuous 105+dB.<br> <br>There are currently two students in our university electroacoustic stud= ies program who have reported their hearing condition to me in some detail,= along with audiograms, and possible hyperacusis. Discussing this with many= younger people tends towards the "teenage invincibility syndrome"= ; [will never happen to me], and in older people, there is a general ignora= nce or lack of understanding, often paired with an attitude that indicates,= "if it really is a problem, there would be laws about it". There= are. But, in my experience, there is a fundamental ignorance of what happe= ns, and what has been happening for the past 35 - 40 years.<br> <br>As the professionals in the field, what can be done? and how can it be = done? Is it a matter of this "silent plague", simply eating up th= e hearing of those who are under 40 such that they will not be able to hear= in 15 - 25 years.<br> <br>Recently, this appeared:<br><br>Thu, 09/12/2013<br>>> Blake Wilso= n, Graeme Clark, and Ingeborg Hochmair were awarded the Lasker Award this w= eek for their contributions to the development of the cochlear implant. The= Lasker Award is essentially the American Nobel prize, and =A0this is an in= credible recognition of not only the importance of cochlear implant technol= ogy but also a much broader acknowledgment of the importance of hearing and= communication by the entire scientific community. There will be several ev= ents over the next few months building on this recognition with interviews = with the Lasker awardees, a dedicated one-hour show on PBS with Charlie Ros= e and Eric Kandel on hearing, and finally a two-day workshop sponsored by t= he Institute of Medicine on hearing loss in older adults in January.<br> <br>It is noted that this seems to be mostly about cochlea-based hearing lo= ss in older adults.<br><br><br>Other items on stem cell research growing ba= ck hair cells have been seen in the media. However, these reports do not ad= dress a major cause of the problem, exposure to high dB levels. As I unders= tand it, this developing technology may have little effect on tinnitus caus= ed by nerve damage.<br> <br>Are there ways to have the media take cognizance of and report on the d= angerous environments which persist?<br><br>As professionals, is there any = individual or group responsibility regarding making this better known and t= he [likely] consequences more clearly understood? Is this like the cigarett= e situation where the 'evil' is not only socially acceptable, but e= xpected so that the event has 'street cred'? Club owners and Rave o= rganizers want blood-letting levels, "because the customers want it&qu= ot;.<br> <span style=3D"color:#888888"><br><br><span>Kevin</span></span><u></u><u></= u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div></div></div><= /div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> --001a1133a57a5849b104e9360227--