Subject: [AUDITORY] Contributing to hearing loss and irrationality From: Kevin Austin <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 01:16:05 -0400 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Boundary_(ID_XU5cg7h8oLXqtLTKl1JtFA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, = on-list, off-list and on other lists. Slowly I am coming to accept that the professional industry itself is a = [significant] contributory factor in this matter. The recommendation is = "better earplugs" ... the implications of this attitude beggars my = imagination, and I do not wish to think about the medium-term = consequences. My reading on this list indicates that levels above a certain SPL, for = durations over nnnn minutes, contribute to permanent damage. The = proposed solutions are to provide the professionals in the community = with [better] custom-designed hearing protection. And the others? Maybe this is about the irrationality of human behavior. On 2013, Oct 20, at 9:14 PM, rif <rif@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > I have and use the Etymotics, but I'm a little dissatisfied that they = are only 12 dB. Is anything non-custom going to be more than 12 dB? >=20 > rif >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Christine Rankovic = <rankovic@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Dear List: >=20 > =20 >=20 > For rock concerts, bands will probably not turn down the sound level = any time soon because this is so much a part of the music culture, and = lawsuits haven=92t worked yet. Therefore, it may be worth considering = providing =93acoustically-tuned=94 earplugs to each ticketholder at = concert venues (regular foam earplugs are unacceptable for concerts = because they distort the sound too much). The act of providing the = earplugs sends a clear message to concert goers and people like = =93freebies.=94 It seems to me that earplug distribution could best be = accomplished by venue owners, but hearing-preservation advocates could = begin to pressure venues by distributing earplugs outside the venue. >=20 > I have used non-custom acoustically-tuned earplugs from Etymotic = Research as recently as last week=92s Jeff Beck concert here in Boston = can attest that they preserve the sound very well. =20 >=20 > Christine Rankovic, PhD >=20 > Articulation Inc. >=20 > Newton, MA >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Virginie van Wassenhove > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 12:13 AM > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: How to speak to people about hearing loss and high sound = pressure levels >=20 > =20 >=20 > Dear Kevin, >=20 > This is indeed a very good question. >=20 >=20 > I don't know the legislation where you are, but most European = countries have one for sound levels in public environments. However, = most of the time it is completely unrelated to the limits imposed on = workplaces, and has actually little to do with health and safety at all. = For instance, in France, the level is limited to 105 dB-A (Leq for 15 = min, 120 dB-SPL peak). No doubt that there's enough in this to induce = hearing loss. >=20 > The crazy thing in all this is that these loud public event generally = don't run themselves by themselves, and the public is generally not left = on its own. There is a lot of staff, and while some of them can wear ear = plugs, a fair number of them can't because they must hear orders from = customers, or because they have the hand on the volume knob and are = supposed to check what's going on sound-wise... >=20 > I used to teach to these guys, sound technicians/engineers, a short = introduction to hearing. What I remember is that there's a lot of myth = and legend in the field: they know next to nothing about how to preserve = their ear even though this is their primary professional tool (deaf = sound engineers don't have the best reputation). Backstage, they hear = things like "ears are like a muscle, you need to train them: the louder = the sound, the stronger your ears become". Actually once you've killed = that myth (by playing simulations of hearing loss, cochlear-implant, = tinnitus, hyperacusis...), they get pretty concerned. And with the = concern for their own health, you may expect that they would be more = concerned about the public's health. >=20 >=20 > Now, only when this knowledge is ubiquitous in the profession will the = tech guys have the guts to tell the producer/employer that they = shouldn't do it. In the meantime the only thing that can bend these = people, is the prospect of getting brought to court for rendering = someone deaf. >=20 >=20 > And actually it already happened. I only know of examples in France, = but it must have happened in America too. In France they talk about a = concert of Ben Harper in Grenoble (29 March 2000) where 6 people in the = audience ended up in hospital for ear damage, and one of them attacked = the organizers in court (I added a bit more details about in the PS). I = haven't been able to check more, but the legend says he won, and the = whole benefice from the concert went in the payment of compensations for = that person. Since, concerts are apparently limited at 95 dB-A in = Grenoble. People don't seem to have noticed, but nobody was sent again = to the hospital. Another example: U2, Marseille July 1993, same story. = I'm sure there's enough material to scare the organizers out of doing = the stupid thing. >=20 > So I think the right discourse is to stress that keeping levels low is = not about making the old neighbours less cranky, it's not about being = nice... it's about health and safety, about preserving your professional = tools (be they employee or your own ears) and about running your = business in a sustainable way. The last straw is that the only argument = against turning down the level is that "people won't enjoy is as much". = But while there's actually no proof of that at all, there quite a large = literature on NIHL... (more on that in the PPS) >=20 > -Etienne >=20 >=20 > PS: More about the case in Grenoble. Again this is what I've heard = from sound engineers. These big concerts use directional systems (line = array, or phased array, or "system V-DOSC"). The common problem that = sound engineers face is that there's a large crowd, and sound needs to = travel and gets attenuated while doing so. With a directional system, = you can try to have a more homogenous sound level in the audience: you = jack up the higher beams to reach afar, but keep the lower beams = relatively softer to avoid deafening (instantly) the audience close to = the stage. Nice on paper, but if you mistune the system (which may = apparently have been the case in Grenoble), you may do worse than good. = And even worse, if you don't have that system but are used to it, you = may forget that you should not have 95 dB at the console at the back of = the audience... >=20 >=20 > PPS: Regarding how enjoyable loud music is, I think there is quite a = large source of evidence that loudness can be subjective and context = dependent. Actually this is a trick that experienced sound engineers = sometime use: when a musician thinks is not loud enough, for instance, = the right thing to do is to lower his level, then when he/she's unhappy, = put it back to where it was... that generally makes one happy = musician... >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Etienne Gaudrain, PhD > UMCG, Afdeling KNO > BB20 > PO Box 30.001 > 9700 RB Groningen > Netherlands > Room P3.236 > Phone +31 5036 13290 > Skype egaudrain > Note: emails to this address are limited to 10 MB. To send larger = attachments, please use egaudrain.cam@xxxxxxxx >=20 >=20 > On 13 October 2013 07:09, Kevin Austin <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx> = wrote: >=20 > An on-going topic -- very high level [dB] sounds, hearing loss, = personal and societal responsibility. >=20 > Once or twice a year I am invited and go to an event where the = sustained sound pressure [dB] levels will be in excess of 95dB, and = often into the 105 - 110+ dB range. I am usually long gone before the = levels have drifted up to this point, however they usually start in the = 85-90dB range. I use a combination of Vaseline [petroleum jelly], and = water- [spit-] soaked paper tissues / Kleenex, to seal my ear canals. At = the last two events I left, about 20% of the people were babies or = children under 7-9. They were brought close to the speaker stacks, and = the younger children enjoyed playing in front of the speakers. >=20 > My question is not one about NIHL etc, which is documented, but rather = one of how to speak to the people responsible, before and/or after the = event about the damage that is being caused by these environments. If = this were a work place, there would be laws, rules, regulations and ways = of changing the behavior. In these social environments, rules and = regulations don't apply. And I'm talking 3 or more hours of continuous = 105+dB. >=20 > There are currently two students in our university electroacoustic = studies program who have reported their hearing condition to me in some = detail, along with audiograms, and possible hyperacusis. Discussing this = with many younger people tends towards the "teenage invincibility = syndrome" [will never happen to me], and in older people, there is a = general ignorance or lack of understanding, often paired with an = attitude that indicates, "if it really is a problem, there would be laws = about it". There are. But, in my experience, there is a fundamental = ignorance of what happens, and what has been happening for the past 35 - = 40 years. >=20 > As the professionals in the field, what can be done? and how can it be = done? Is it a matter of this "silent plague", simply eating up the = hearing of those who are under 40 such that they will not be able to = hear in 15 - 25 years. >=20 > Recently, this appeared: >=20 > Thu, 09/12/2013 > >> Blake Wilson, Graeme Clark, and Ingeborg Hochmair were awarded the = Lasker Award this week for their contributions to the development of the = cochlear implant. The Lasker Award is essentially the American Nobel = prize, and this is an incredible recognition of not only the importance = of cochlear implant technology but also a much broader acknowledgment of = the importance of hearing and communication by the entire scientific = community. There will be several events over the next few months = building on this recognition with interviews with the Lasker awardees, a = dedicated one-hour show on PBS with Charlie Rose and Eric Kandel on = hearing, and finally a two-day workshop sponsored by the Institute of = Medicine on hearing loss in older adults in January. >=20 > It is noted that this seems to be mostly about cochlea-based hearing = loss in older adults. >=20 >=20 > Other items on stem cell research growing back hair cells have been = seen in the media. However, these reports do not address a major cause = of the problem, exposure to high dB levels. As I understand it, this = developing technology may have little effect on tinnitus caused by nerve = damage. >=20 > Are there ways to have the media take cognizance of and report on the = dangerous environments which persist? >=20 > As professionals, is there any individual or group responsibility = regarding making this better known and the [likely] consequences more = clearly understood? Is this like the cigarette situation where the = 'evil' is not only socially acceptable, but expected so that the event = has 'street cred'? Club owners and Rave organizers want blood-letting = levels, "because the customers want it". >=20 >=20 > Kevin >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 --Boundary_(ID_XU5cg7h8oLXqtLTKl1JtFA) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; = "><div><br></div><div>I would like to thank everyone who has contributed = to this thread, on-list, off-list and on other = lists.</div><div><br></div><div>Slowly I am coming to accept that the = professional industry itself is a [significant] contributory factor in = this matter. The recommendation is "better earplugs" ... the = implications of this attitude beggars my imagination, and I do not wish = to think about the medium-term consequences.</div><div><br></div><div>My = reading on this list indicates that levels above a certain SPL, for = durations over nnnn minutes, contribute to permanent damage. The = proposed solutions are to provide the professionals in the community = with [better] custom-designed hearing protection. And the = others?</div><div><br></div><div>Maybe this is about the irrationality = of human = behavior.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div= ><div><br></div><br><div><div>On 2013, Oct 20, at 9:14 PM, rif <<a = href=3D"mailto:rif@xxxxxxxx">rif@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div = dir=3D"ltr">I have and use the Etymotics, but I'm a little dissatisfied = that they are only 12 dB. Is anything non-custom going to be more = than 12 dB?<div><br></div><div>rif</div><div><br></div></div><div = class=3D"gmail_extra"> <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 6:04 AM, = Christine Rankovic <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a = href=3D"mailto:rankovic@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">rankovic@xxxxxxxx</a>></span> = wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); = border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: = auto; "> <div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1f497d">Dear List:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"> <span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1f497d">For rock concerts, bands will probably not turn = down the sound level any time soon because this is so much a part of the = music culture, and lawsuits haven=92t worked yet. Therefore, it = may be worth considering providing =93acoustically-tuned=94 earplugs to = each ticketholder at concert venues (regular foam earplugs are = unacceptable for concerts because they distort the sound too = much). The act of providing the earplugs sends a clear message to = concert goers and people like =93freebies.=94 It seems to me that = earplug distribution could best be accomplished by venue owners, but = hearing-preservation advocates could begin to pressure venues by = distributing earplugs outside the venue.</span></p><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1f497d">I have used non-custom acoustically-tuned earplugs = from Etymotic Research as recently as last week=92s Jeff Beck concert = here in Boston can attest that they preserve the sound very well. = <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; = font-size: 11pt; ">Christine Rankovic, PhD</span></p><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1f497d">Articulation Inc.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1f497d">Newton, MA<u></u><u></u></span></p><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p><div><div = style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span = style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif&= quot;">From:</span></b><span = style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif&= quot;"> AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:<a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>] <b>On Behalf Of = </b>Virginie van Wassenhove<br> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 14, 2013 12:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: = How to speak to people about hearing loss and high sound pressure = levels<u></u><u></u></span></p> </div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Kevin, <u></u><u></u></p><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>This is indeed a very good = question.</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>I don't know the legislation = where you are, but most European countries have one for sound levels in = public environments. However, most of the time it is completely = unrelated to the limits imposed on workplaces, and has actually little = to do with health and safety at all. For instance, in France, the level = is limited to 105 dB-A (Leq for 15 min, 120 dB-SPL peak). No doubt that = there's enough in this to induce hearing loss.</p></div><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal">The crazy thing in all this is that these loud = public event generally don't run themselves by themselves, and the = public is generally not left on its own. There is a lot of staff, and = while some of them can wear ear plugs, a fair number of them can't = because they must hear orders from customers, or because they have the = hand on the volume knob and are supposed to check what's going on = sound-wise...<u></u><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>I used to teach to these guys, = sound technicians/engineers, a short introduction to hearing. What I = remember is that there's a lot of myth and legend in the field: they = know next to nothing about how to preserve their ear even though this is = their primary professional tool (deaf sound engineers don't have the = best reputation). Backstage, they hear things like "ears are like a = muscle, you need to train them: the louder the sound, the stronger your = ears become". Actually once you've killed that myth (by playing = simulations of hearing loss, cochlear-implant, tinnitus, = hyperacusis...), they get pretty concerned. And with the concern for = their own health, you may expect that they would be more concerned about = the public's health.</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>Now, only when this knowledge = is ubiquitous in the profession will the tech guys have the guts to tell = the producer/employer that they shouldn't do it. In the meantime the = only thing that can bend these people, is the prospect of getting = brought to court for rendering someone deaf.</p></div><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>And actually it already = happened. I only know of examples in France, but it must have happened = in America too. In France they talk about a concert of Ben Harper in = Grenoble (29 March 2000) where 6 people in the audience ended up in = hospital for ear damage, and one of them attacked the organizers in = court (I added a bit more details about in the PS). I haven't been able = to check more, but the legend says he won, and the whole benefice from = the concert went in the payment of compensations for that person. Since, = concerts are apparently limited at 95 dB-A in Grenoble. People don't = seem to have noticed, but nobody was sent again to the hospital. Another = example: U2, Marseille July 1993, same story. I'm sure there's enough = material to scare the organizers out of doing the stupid = thing.</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">So I think the right = discourse is to stress that keeping levels low is not about making the = old neighbours less cranky, it's not about being nice... it's about = health and safety, about preserving your professional tools (be they = employee or your own ears) and about running your business in a = sustainable way. The last straw is that the only argument against = turning down the level is that "people won't enjoy is as much". But = while there's actually no proof of that at all, there quite a large = literature on NIHL... (more on that in the PPS)<u></u><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>-Etienne</p></div><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p></div><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>PS: More about the case in Grenoble. Again = this is what I've heard from sound engineers. These big concerts use = directional systems (line array, or phased array, or "system V-DOSC"). = The common problem that sound engineers face is that there's a large = crowd, and sound needs to travel and gets attenuated while doing so. = With a directional system, you can try to have a more homogenous sound = level in the audience: you jack up the higher beams to reach afar, but = keep the lower beams relatively softer to avoid deafening (instantly) = the audience close to the stage. Nice on paper, but if you mistune the = system (which may apparently have been the case in Grenoble), you may do = worse than good. And even worse, if you don't have that system but are = used to it, you may forget that you should not have 95 dB at the console = at the back of the audience...</p></div><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>PPS: Regarding how enjoyable = loud music is, I think there is quite a large source of evidence that = loudness can be subjective and context dependent. Actually this is a = trick that experienced sound engineers sometime use: when a musician = thinks is not loud enough, for instance, the right thing to do is to = lower his level, then when he/she's unhappy, put it back to where it = was... that generally makes one happy musician...</p></div><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p> </div><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>-- </p></div><div><pre><u></u></pre><pre>E= tienne Gaudrain, PhD<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>UMCG, Afdeling = KNO<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>BB20<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>PO Box = 30.001<u></u><u></u></pre> <pre>9700 RB = Groningen<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>Netherlands</pre><pre>Room = P3.236<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>Phone <a href=3D"tel:%2B31%205036%2013290" = value=3D"+31503613290" target=3D"_blank">+31 5036 = 13290</a><u></u><u></u></pre> <pre>Skype egaudrain</pre><pre>Note: emails to this address are limited = to 10 MB. To send larger attachments, please use <a = href=3D"mailto:egaudrain.cam@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">egaudrain.cam@xxxxxxxx</a>.<u></u><u></u></pre> </div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><br></p></div></div><div><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal">On 13 October 2013 07:09, Kevin Austin <<a = href=3D"mailto:kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx</a>> = wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">An on-going topic -- very = high level [dB] sounds, hearing loss, personal and societal = responsibility.<br><br>Once or twice a year I am invited and go to an = event where the sustained sound pressure [dB] levels will be in excess = of 95dB, and often into the 105 - 110+ dB range. I am usually long gone = before the levels have drifted up to this point, however they usually = start in the 85-90dB range. I use a combination of Vaseline [petroleum = jelly], and water- [spit-] soaked paper tissues / Kleenex, to seal my = ear canals. At the last two events I left, about 20% of the people were = babies or children under 7-9. They were brought close to the speaker = stacks, and the younger children enjoyed playing in front of the = speakers.<br> <br>My question is not one about NIHL etc, which is documented, but = rather one of how to speak to the people responsible, before and/or = after the event about the damage that is being caused by these = environments. If this were a work place, there would be laws, rules, = regulations and ways of changing the behavior. In these social = environments, rules and regulations don't apply. And I'm talking 3 or = more hours of continuous 105+dB.<br> <br>There are currently two students in our university electroacoustic = studies program who have reported their hearing condition to me in some = detail, along with audiograms, and possible hyperacusis. Discussing this = with many younger people tends towards the "teenage invincibility = syndrome" [will never happen to me], and in older people, there is a = general ignorance or lack of understanding, often paired with an = attitude that indicates, "if it really is a problem, there would be laws = about it". There are. But, in my experience, there is a fundamental = ignorance of what happens, and what has been happening for the past 35 - = 40 years.<br> <br>As the professionals in the field, what can be done? and how can it = be done? Is it a matter of this "silent plague", simply eating up the = hearing of those who are under 40 such that they will not be able to = hear in 15 - 25 years.<br> <br>Recently, this appeared:<br><br>Thu, 09/12/2013<br>>> Blake = Wilson, Graeme Clark, and Ingeborg Hochmair were awarded the Lasker = Award this week for their contributions to the development of the = cochlear implant. The Lasker Award is essentially the American Nobel = prize, and this is an incredible recognition of not only the = importance of cochlear implant technology but also a much broader = acknowledgment of the importance of hearing and communication by the = entire scientific community. There will be several events over the next = few months building on this recognition with interviews with the Lasker = awardees, a dedicated one-hour show on PBS with Charlie Rose and Eric = Kandel on hearing, and finally a two-day workshop sponsored by the = Institute of Medicine on hearing loss in older adults in January.<br> <br>It is noted that this seems to be mostly about cochlea-based hearing = loss in older adults.<br><br><br>Other items on stem cell research = growing back hair cells have been seen in the media. However, these = reports do not address a major cause of the problem, exposure to high dB = levels. As I understand it, this developing technology may have little = effect on tinnitus caused by nerve damage.<br> <br>Are there ways to have the media take cognizance of and report on = the dangerous environments which persist?<br><br>As professionals, is = there any individual or group responsibility regarding making this = better known and the [likely] consequences more clearly understood? Is = this like the cigarette situation where the 'evil' is not only socially = acceptable, but expected so that the event has 'street cred'? Club = owners and Rave organizers want blood-letting levels, "because the = customers want it".<br> <span = style=3D"color:#888888"><br><br><span>Kevin</span></span><u></u><u></u></p= ></div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div></bloc= kquote></div><br></div> </blockquote></div><br></body></html>= --Boundary_(ID_XU5cg7h8oLXqtLTKl1JtFA)--