Re: [AUDITORY] Why rock concerts turn the volume up to eleven -- was re: How to speak to people about hearing loss and high sound pressure levels (Peter Lennox )


Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Why rock concerts turn the volume up to eleven -- was re: How to speak to people about hearing loss and high sound pressure levels
From:    Peter Lennox  <P.Lennox@xxxxxxxx>
Date:    Tue, 22 Oct 2013 13:28:04 +0100
List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>

--_000_28F33490C302424E98CC6DC2531B2048E37D0A2A8CMKTMBX01unive_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gosh, I can't see why concert-goers wouldn't want to strap a small hammer = to their skull! Seriously though, on the same vein, for many sound engineers and gig-goers= , "good" bass is that which travels down the body - that is, if it is felt= in the chest, that's good, in the stomach is even better, and below that = is awesome. So I wonder if this haptic component might actually be what pe= ople are after when they crank it up to 11? - the desire to push the Lf do= wn to 30, 20, even lower - is it because they literally want to feel the m= usic? If that were so, then all that turning it up is trying to recover frequenc= ies lost by the response limitations of the equipment - if a reasonable wa= y to distribute and control very low frequencies (given how unruly such fr= equencies are in enclosed spaces!), it might be that one could turn down t= he more harmful frequencies? Dr. Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.lennox@xxxxxxxx<mailto:p.lennox@xxxxxxxx> t: 01332 593155 From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= GILL.CA] On Behalf Of Mark Riggle Sent: 21 October 2013 15:22 To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Why rock concerts turn the volume up to eleven -- was re: How to = speak to people about hearing loss and high sound pressure levels When rock concerts and dance halls have played rock music at high intensit= ies (painfully to many) for more than 50 years, it cannot be just a 'cult= ural artifact'. When the volume is below about 95dB, complaints occur th= at the music is not loud enough. Repeated behavior is the definition of a= rewarded behavior, therefore there is an obvious pleasure of a very loud = rock beat. As shown by Todd and Cody (Todd2000), at about 95dB, the bass = beat will 'leak' some of the pressure wave from the cochlea to a vestibula= r otolith organ. That pressure wave thus provides a nice vestibular impuls= e that is perfectly timed with the auditory beat. While Todd and Cody thought that the pleasure is only from the vestibular = stimulation, they did not consider that the pleasure is from an in-phase, = rhythmic co-stimulation of an auditory beat with a vestibular impulse. Th= is simultaneous stimulation of auditory beat and vestibular impulse also o= ccurs with dance. During dance, head nodding is not smooth but jerks back= on the beat which is a vestibular jerk (an impulse). Also in dance, foot= striking occurring on the beat causes a shockwave impulse through the ske= leton to the head; that shockwave is felt as a vestibular impulse. Dance= music has a very strong beat (usually a bass drum); therefore, for dancin= g, the auditory beat and the vestibular impulse are also in-phase and rhy= thmic. Dancing is pleasurable (by the definition of rewarded behavior as repeated= behavior), and that pleasure is likely from multiple sources. However, s= ince dancing is very pleasurable (at least dancing where you stay in time = to the beat) and the rock-and-roll threshold implies pleasure, it is reaso= nable to suspect some common pleasure driving them. The strong candidate = for a common pleasure would be: an in-phase, rhythmic co-stimulation of an= auditory beat with a vestibular impulse. Why would that particular sensory stimulation be pleasurable in humans? O= ddly, it does seem unique to humans and some birds. At a presentation at = a music conference, I dubbed this pleasure sensation, RAVI -- Rhythmic Aud= itory Vestibular Impulse. Interestingly, if this pleasure from RAVI exi= sts, many complex human unique results are expected (because a pleasure re= peatably motivates all behaviors that produce the pleasure). All the expe= cted behaviors do occur in humans (and are absent from non-human primates= ), thus lending support for the existence of RAVI pleasure in humans. So back to the rock concerts as hearing damaging: unfortunately, they are = likely going to stay that way. But if it is RAVI pleasure as the driving = force behind the rock-and-roll threshold, we can simulate the pressure wav= e 'leak' of the inner-ear . We just need to make a headband device that d= elivers a vestibular impulse (a small hammer perhaps) which is in-phase wi= th the auditory beat. With that device, the volume can be turned down to = perhaps only ten. Maybe the device can be a GoogleGlass accessory so it = can be accepted? I don't see it becoming popular. Mark Riggle -- a former RAVI enthusiast who would like his hearing fully back See http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000107/full/news000113-2.html for Phi= lip Ball's view. Todd, N.P. & Cody, F.W. Vestibular responses to loud dance music: A physio= logical basis of the "rock and roll threshold"? JASA 107, 496 - 500 2000. _____________________________________________________________________ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserve= s the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent t= o you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please dir= ect any concerns to Infosec@xxxxxxxx --_000_28F33490C302424E98CC6DC2531B2048E37D0A2A8CMKTMBX01unive_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-mic= rosoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word= " xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"ht= tp://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type conte= nt=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Mic= rosoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx =09{font-family:Calibri; =09panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx =09{font-family:Tahoma; =09panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal =09{margin:0cm; =09margin-bottom:.0001pt; =09font-size:12.0pt; =09font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"; =09color:black;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink =09{mso-style-priority:99; =09color:blue; =09text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed =09{mso-style-priority:99; =09color:purple; =09text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 =09{mso-style-type:personal-reply; =09font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; =09color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault =09{mso-style-type:export-only; =09font-size:10.0pt;} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 =09{size:612.0pt 792.0pt; =09margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 =09{page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-G= B link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNorma= l><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color= :#1F497D'>Gosh, I can&#8217;t see why concert-goers wouldn&#8217;t want to= strap a small hammer to their skull!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN= ormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c= olor:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style= =3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ser= iously though, on the same vein, for many sound engineers and gig-goers, &= #8220;good&#8221; bass is that which travels down the body &#8211; that is= , if it is felt in the chest, that&#8217;s good, in the stomach is even be= tter, and below that is awesome. So I wonder if this haptic component migh= t actually be what people are after when they crank it up to 11? &#8211; t= he desire to push the Lf down to 30, 20, even lower &#8211; is it because = they literally want to feel the music?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso= Normal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";= color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl= e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If= that were so, then all that turning it up is trying to recover frequencie= s lost by the response limitations of the equipment &#8211; if a reasonabl= e way to distribute and control very low frequencies (given how unruly suc= h frequencies are in enclosed spaces!), it might be that one could turn do= wn the more harmful frequencies?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal= ><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:= #1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style= =3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-= fareast-language:EN-US'>Dr. Peter Lennox<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM= soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p= class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","= sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>School of Technology= ,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p= t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN= -US'>Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D= MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri= f";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>University of Derby, UK<o:p><= /o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-= family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>e:= <a href=3D"mailto:p.lennox@xxxxxxxx">p.lennox@xxxxxxxx</a> <o:p></o= :p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fa= mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>t: 0= 1332 593155<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D= 'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&= nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C= 4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3D= EN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:wi= ndowtext'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon= t-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> AUDITORY - Research in A= uditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <b>On Behalf Of </b>M= ark Riggle<br><b>Sent:</b> 21 October 2013 15:22<br><b>To:</b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= STS.MCGILL.CA<br><b>Subject:</b> Why rock concerts turn the volume up to e= leven -- was re: How to speak to people about hearing loss and high sound = pressure levels<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p= >&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>When rock concerts and dance halls h= ave played rock music at high intensities (painfully to many)&nbsp; for mo= re than 50 years, it cannot be just a 'cultural artifact'.&nbsp; When the = volume is below about 95dB,&nbsp; complaints occur that the music is not l= oud enough.&nbsp; Repeated behavior is the definition of a rewarded behavi= or, therefore there is an obvious pleasure of a very loud rock beat.&nbsp;= As shown by Todd and Cody (Todd2000), at about 95dB, the bass beat will '= leak' some of the pressure wave from the cochlea to a vestibular otolith o= rgan. That pressure wave thus provides a nice vestibular impulse that is p= erfectly timed with the auditory beat.&nbsp; <br><br>While Todd and Cody t= hought that the pleasure is only from the vestibular stimulation, they did= not consider that the pleasure is from an in-phase, rhythmic co-stimulati= on of an auditory beat with a vestibular impulse.&nbsp; This simultaneous = stimulation of auditory beat and vestibular impulse also occurs with dance= .&nbsp; During dance, head nodding is not smooth but jerks back on the bea= t which is a vestibular jerk (an impulse).&nbsp; Also in dance, foot strik= ing occurring on the beat causes a shockwave impulse through the skeleton = to the head; that shockwave is felt as a vestibular impulse. &nbsp; Dance = music has a very strong beat (usually a bass drum); therefore, for dancing= ,&nbsp; the auditory beat and the vestibular impulse are also in-phase and= rhythmic.<br><br>Dancing is pleasurable (by the definition of rewarded be= havior as repeated behavior), and that pleasure is likely from multiple so= urces.&nbsp; However, since dancing is very pleasurable (at least dancing = where you stay in time to the beat) and the rock-and-roll threshold implie= s pleasure, it is reasonable to suspect some common pleasure driving them.= &nbsp; The strong candidate for a common pleasure would be: an=20in-phase,= rhythmic co-stimulation of an auditory beat with a vestibular impulse. <b= r><br>Why would that particular sensory stimulation be pleasurable in huma= ns?&nbsp; Oddly, it does seem unique to humans and some birds.&nbsp; At a = presentation at a music conference, I dubbed this pleasure sensation, RAVI= -- Rhythmic Auditory Vestibular Impulse.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Interestingly,= if this pleasure from RAVI exists, many complex human unique results are = expected (because a pleasure repeatably motivates all behaviors that produ= ce the pleasure).&nbsp; All the expected behaviors&nbsp; do occur in human= s (and are absent from non-human primates), thus lending support for the e= xistence of RAVI pleasure in humans.&nbsp; <br><br>So back to the rock con= certs as hearing damaging: unfortunately, they are likely going to stay th= at way.&nbsp; But if it is RAVI pleasure as the driving force behind the r= ock-and-roll threshold, we can simulate the pressure wave 'leak' of the in= ner-ear .&nbsp; We just need to make a headband device that delivers a ves= tibular impulse (a small hammer perhaps) which is in-phase with the audito= ry beat.&nbsp; With that device, the volume can be turned down to perhaps&= nbsp; only ten.&nbsp; Maybe the device can be a GoogleGlass accessory so i= t can be accepted?&nbsp; I don't see it becoming popular.<br><br>Mark Rigg= le <br>&nbsp;-- a former RAVI enthusiast who would like his hearing fully = back<br><br>See <a href=3D"http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000107/full/new= s000113-2.html">http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000107/full/news000113-2.h= tml</a>&nbsp; for Philip Ball's view.<br><br>Todd, N.P. &amp; Cody, F.W. V= estibular responses to loud dance music: A physiological basis of the &quo= t;rock and roll threshold&quot;? <i>JASA</i> <b>107</b>, 496 - 500 2000.<b= r><br><br><br><br>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p></div><br clear=3D"both"> _____________________________________________________________________<BR> The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserve= s the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent t= o you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please dir= ect any concerns to Infosec@xxxxxxxx<BR> </body></html> --_000_28F33490C302424E98CC6DC2531B2048E37D0A2A8CMKTMBX01unive_--


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