Subject: Re: comparison of envelope rise times in orchestral instruments From: David Worrall <david.worrall@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 21:54:50 +0100 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Apple-Mail=_8024D5C9-1E5E-4AA8-BF1B-F86DDE72867C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Dear Jim, a-listers, I think from your excellent description(including that it did not = include percussion instruments) this may be the one: David Luce and Melville Clark, Jr. 1965. "Durations of Attack Transients = of Non-percussive Orchestral Instruments", J. Audio Eng. Soc. 12 (3) July, 1965. I don't have journal access at the moment, so I will have to wait until = I do to check it out. In addition to this one, Rob Maher also suggested perhaps another of = theirs: =93Intensities of orchestral instrument scales played at prescribed = dynamic markings=94 1965 or=20 =93A preliminary experiment on the perceptual basis for musical = instrument families=94 1964 For the benefit of those with an interest in this topic, let me = summarise the responses that, though not the actual article I was = looking for, reminded me of some fabulous work, including your book, Jim = and a new one: James Beauchamp 2007. Analysis, Synthesis, and Perception of Musical = Sounds: The Sound of Music (Springer) J W Gorgon 1987. The perceptual attack time of musical tones. JASA, 82, = 88-105. John Grey 1975. =93An Exploration of Musical Timbre,=94 unpublished = doctoral dissertation, Stanford University. John Grey 1977. Multidimensional percpetual scaling of musical timbres . = JASA 61/5. 1270-1277. John Grey & James Moorer 1977 Perceptual evaluations of synthesized = musical instrument tones. JASA 62:454-462.=20 Karl Jensen 1999. Timbre Models of Musical Sound. doctoral thesis. = Allborg University. David Wessel 1975. Timbre Space as a control structure. CMJ 3/2 I am aware, Jim, of some of the limitations of this work, but the = consistency of approach across the domain makes it useful for some = comparative tasks. And to think that it was only 50 years ago such work was done without = computers! Thanks _so_ much for all the people who responded both on and off the = list. Your generosity in helping to solve this puzzle - or at least = narrowing the search - is overwhelming! David On 06.12.2014, at 05:48, James W. Beauchamp = <jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > David, >=20 > This may be what you're looking for: >=20 > David Luce and Melville Clark, Jr., "Durations of Attack Transients > of Nonpercussive Orchestral Instruments", J. Audio Eng. Soc. 12 (3) > July, 1965. >=20 > Of course, the problem is: How to define "attack time"?. Also, what > sound samples should be used to test? >=20 > Surprisingly the measurements did not use a computer, although > curves of the measured data were fit by parabolas using an IBM 709.=20 >=20 > Jim >=20 > James W. Beauchamp =20 > Professor Emeritus of Music and Electrical & Computer Engineering > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > email: jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx (also: jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx) > WWW: http://ems.music.uiuc.edu/beaucham >=20 > You wrote: >> From: David Worrall <david.worrall@xxxxxxxx> >> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:38:52 +0100 >> To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx >> Subject: comparison of envelope rise times in orchestral instruments >>=20 >> Hello all, >>=20 >> I've been looking for some time, and failed miserably, for an old (30 >> yrs+) article - in JASA I think - which has graphs for each = orchestral >> 'family' of envelope rise (attack) times across the entire range of = each >> instrument. >>=20 >> I'm afraid I can't provide any more detail than that. >>=20 >> Does anyone have the reference perchance? Or something more recent >> perhaps? >>=20 >> Many thanks, >>=20 >> David >> ______________________________________ >> Prof. Dr. David Worrall >> Emerging Audio Research (EAR) >> Audio Department >> International Audio Laboratories Erlangen >> Fraunhofer-Institut f=3DFCr Integrierte Schaltungen IIS >> Am Wolfsmantel 33 >> 91058 Erlangen >> Telefon +49 (0) 91 31 / 7 76-62 44 >> Fax +49 (0) 91 31 / 7 76-20 99 >> E-Mail: david.worrall@xxxxxxxx >> www: iis.fraunhofer.de >> audiolabs-erlangen.de/research/emerging-audio-research >> --- >> Adjunct Senior Research Fellow >> School of Music, Australian National University >> david.worrall@xxxxxxxx >=20 ______________________________________ Prof. Dr. David Worrall Emerging Audio Research (EAR) Audio Department International Audio Laboratories Erlangen Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr Integrierte Schaltungen IIS Am Wolfsmantel 33 91058 Erlangen Telefon +49 (0) 91 31 / 7 76-62 44 Fax +49 (0) 91 31 / 7 76-20 99 E-Mail: david.worrall@xxxxxxxx www: iis.fraunhofer.de=20 audiolabs-erlangen.de/research/emerging-audio-research --- Adjunct Senior Research Fellow School of Music, Australian National University david.worrall@xxxxxxxx --Apple-Mail=_8024D5C9-1E5E-4AA8-BF1B-F86DDE72867C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear = Jim, a-listers,<div><br></div><div>I think from your excellent = description(including that it did not include percussion instruments) = this may be the one:</div><div>David Luce and Melville Clark, Jr. = 1965. "Durations of Attack Transients of Non-percussive Orchestral = Instruments", J. Audio Eng. Soc. 12 (3)<br>July, = 1965.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't have journal access at the = moment, so I will have to wait until I do to check it = out.</div><div><br></div><div>In addition to this one, Rob Maher also = suggested perhaps another of theirs:</div><div><div>=93Intensities of = orchestral instrument scales played at prescribed dynamic markings=94 = 1965<br>or </div><div>=93A preliminary experiment on the = perceptual basis for musical instrument families=94 = 1964<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div>For the = benefit of those with an interest in this topic, let me summarise the = responses that, though not the actual article I was looking for, = reminded me of some fabulous work, including your book, Jim and a new = one:</div><div><br></div>James Beauchamp 2007. Analysis, Synthesis, = and Perception of Musical Sounds: The Sound of Music = (Springer)<br><div>J W Gorgon 1987. The perceptual attack time of = musical tones. JASA, 82, 88-105.<br><div>John Grey 1975. =93An = Exploration of Musical Timbre,=94 unpublished = doctoral dissertation, Stanford University.</div><div>John = Grey 1977. Multidimensional percpetual scaling of musical timbres . JASA = 61/5. 1270-1277.<br><div>John Grey & James Moorer = 1977 Perceptual evaluations of synthesized musical instrument = tones. JASA 62:454-462. </div><div>Karl Jensen = 1999. Timbre Models of Musical Sound. doctoral thesis. Allborg = University.</div><div>David Wessel 1975. Timbre Space as a control = structure. CMJ 3/2</div><div><br></div></div><div><div>I am aware, Jim, = of some of the limitations of this work, but the consistency of approach = across the domain makes it useful for some comparative = tasks.</div><div>And to think that it was only 50 years ago such work = was done without computers!</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks _so_ much = for all the people who responded both on and off the list. Your = generosity in helping to solve this puzzle - or at least narrowing the = search - is = overwhelming!</div><div><br></div></div><div>David</div><div><br></div><di= v><div><div>On 06.12.2014, at 05:48, James W. Beauchamp <<a = href=3D"mailto:jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx">jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx= c.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote = type=3D"cite">David,<br><br>This may be what you're looking = for:<br><br>David Luce and Melville Clark, Jr., "Durations of Attack = Transients<br>of Nonpercussive Orchestral Instruments", J. Audio Eng. = Soc. 12 (3)<br>July, 1965.<br><br>Of course, the problem is: How to = define "attack time"?. Also, what<br>sound samples should be used to = test?<br><br>Surprisingly the measurements did not use a computer, = although<br>curves of the measured data were fit by parabolas using an = IBM 709. <br><br>Jim<br><br>James W. Beauchamp = &n= bsp; &nbs= p; = <br>Professor = Emeritus of Music and Electrical & Computer = Engineering<br>University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign<br>email: <a = href=3D"mailto:jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx">jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx</a> (also: = <a = href=3D"mailto:jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx">jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx</a= >)<br>WWW: <a = href=3D"http://ems.music.uiuc.edu/beaucham">http://ems.music.uiuc.edu/beau= cham</a><br><br>You wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">From: David = Worrall <<a = href=3D"mailto:david.worrall@xxxxxxxx">david.worrall@xxxxxxxx= ER.DE</a>><br>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:38:52 +0100<br>To: <a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br>S= ubject: comparison of envelope rise times in orchestral = instruments<br><br>Hello all,<br><br>I've been looking for some time, = and failed miserably, for an old (30<br>yrs+) article - in JASA I think = - which has graphs for each orchestral<br>'family' of envelope rise = (attack) times across the entire range of each<br>instrument.<br><br>I'm = afraid I can't provide any more detail than that.<br><br>Does anyone = have the reference perchance? Or something more = recent<br>perhaps?<br><br>Many = thanks,<br><br>David<br>______________________________________<br>Prof. = Dr. David Worrall<br>Emerging Audio Research (EAR)<br>Audio = Department<br>International Audio Laboratories = Erlangen<br>Fraunhofer-Institut f=3DFCr Integrierte Schaltungen = IIS<br>Am Wolfsmantel 33<br>91058 Erlangen<br>Telefon +49 (0) 91 = 31 / 7 76-62 44<br>Fax +49 (0) 91 31 / 7 = 76-20 99<br>E-Mail: <a = href=3D"mailto:david.worrall@xxxxxxxx">david.worrall@xxxxxxxx= er.de</a><br>www: <a = href=3D"http://iis.fraunhofer.de">iis.fraunhofer.de</a><br> = <a = href=3D"http://audiolabs-erlangen.de/research/emerging-audio-research">aud= iolabs-erlangen.de/research/emerging-audio-research</a><br>---<br>Adjunct = Senior Research Fellow<br>School of Music, Australian National = University<br><a = href=3D"mailto:david.worrall@xxxxxxxx">david.worrall@xxxxxxxx</a><br><= /blockquote><br></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited=3D"true">= <div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: = medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: = -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: = -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: = -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: = -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: = -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: = -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: = -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; = font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: = -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; = "><div>______________________________________<br>Prof. Dr. David = Worrall<br>Emerging Audio Research (EAR)<br>Audio = Department<br>International Audio Laboratories = Erlangen<br>Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr Integrierte Schaltungen IIS<br>Am = Wolfsmantel 33<br>91058 Erlangen<br>Telefon +49 (0) 91 31 / 7 = 76-62 44<br>Fax +49 (0) 91 31 / 7 76-20 = 99<br>E-Mail: <a = href=3D"mailto:david.worrall@xxxxxxxx">david.worrall@xxxxxxxx= er.de</a><br>www: <a = href=3D"http://iis.fraunhofer.de">iis.fraunhofer.de</a> <br></div><di= v> <a = href=3D"http://audiolabs-erlangen.de/research/emerging-audio-research">aud= iolabs-erlangen.de/research/emerging-audio-research</a></div><div>---</div= ><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Adjunct Senior Research = Fellow</div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: = space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">School of Music, = Australian National University</div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><a = href=3D"mailto:david.worrall@xxxxxxxx">david.worrall@xxxxxxxx</a><br><= /div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> </div> <br></div></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_8024D5C9-1E5E-4AA8-BF1B-F86DDE72867C--