Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Maximum temporal window for pattern recognition and the perception of redundancy From: PIerre DIVENYI <pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 23:22:31 -0800 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Apple-Mail-FAA62EE4-B8B0-4B78-B4B8-939118A147A8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Dario, Somewhat in line with Peter Lennox' comment might be the findings of old exp= eriments on the discrimination of 10-tone sequences of 400 ms by Watson and h= is colleagues in the 1970's and '80's, and those of the identification of th= e temporal order of 3 brief tones, in isolation or in a longer sequnce, by D= ivenyi and Hirsh, also in the 1970's (papers mostly published in JASA and P&= P). While the total duration of these sequences is shorter than that of the s= ounds of your interest, those studies investigated the effect of parametric c= hanges on various dimensions and, to the extent that the findings could be e= xtrapolated to longer sounds, they could point to sources of variability tha= t Peter refers to. Pierre Sent from my iPad > On Feb 3, 2017, at 05:07, Peter Lennox <P.Lennox@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99m struggling to understand how one could talk about the maximum t= emporal window independently of discussion of the dimensions of =E2=80=98int= errelatedness=E2=80=99. Your example of a sequence of different pitches (tho= ugh you don=E2=80=99t mention timbre/harmonic content, or envelope structure= ) presumes differences in the frequency domain, but similarity in other resp= ects, is that right? > So your findings might, for argument=E2=80=99s sake, vary according to the= degree of interrelatedness (or at least, the degree of =E2=80=98similarity=E2= =80=99 along several dimensions). > Similarly, if similarity were very high (i.e. identical =E2=80=93 a loop) =E2= =80=93 the maximum temporal window might actually be the maximum possible un= der any circumstances, speculatively. > In that context (=E2=80=98looping=E2=80=99), my students, in an exercise t= o synthesise 10 minute spatial soundscapes (in ambisonics) often try to get a= way with looping some ambient background material of, say 2 mins. After repe= ated listening of the whole piece, by the third time, the loops are very not= iceable, to me (and much to the students=E2=80=99 surprise). But that=E2=80=99= s because particular features are identical, the listener is accustomed to h= earing loops (even expecting them) and probably various other factors. > Whether this sheds any light on interrelated-but-not-identical, I=E2=80=99= ve no idea. But it=E2=80=99s not very compatible with the =E2=80=98tape reco= rder=E2=80=99 metaphor, and is more akin to an example of Cocktail Party Eff= ect. > Regards > ppl > =20 > Dr. Peter Lennox > Senior Lecturer in Perception > College of Arts > University of Derby, UK > e: p.lennox@xxxxxxxx > t: 01332 593155 > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > =20 > From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= GILL.CA] On Behalf Of Dario Sanfilippo > Sent: 01 February 2017 14:40 > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Maximum temporal window for pattern recognition and the perceptio= n of redundancy > =20 > Hello, dear list. > =20 > I would like to ask you a couple of questions and I will be very grateful i= f you could help me. It would be great to be pointed out to specific publica= tions, thank you so much in advance for that. > =20 > The first question is on the maximum temporal window for the recognition o= f patterns in long-term audio events. Generally speaking, what is the larges= t (temporal) distance between audio events so that we can still process such= events as interrelated? As an example, let's assume to have a sequence of d= ifferent pitches equally spaced in time; what is the largest possible distan= ce between them to still be able to perceive a melody? > =20 > The second question is on the perception of redundancy in relatively compl= ex (i.e., dynamical equilibrium) long-term audio events. As an example, thin= k of the sound of the sea: its internal structure is never the same although= it keeps a strong identity from a global point of view. I believe that this= is highly dependent on both the cultural background of the listener as well= as the degree of complexity of the audio event itself, but is there any stu= dy which tries to relate the perception of redundancy (i.e., the moment in w= hich the listener's attention drops) with a specific temporal window? And is= there a connection or similarity between this window and the one described i= n my first question? > =20 > Thank you and best wishes. >=20 > Dario >=20 >=20 > The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserve= s the right to monitor email traffic.=20 > If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender a= nd let them know. >=20 > Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ --Apple-Mail-FAA62EE4-B8B0-4B78-B4B8-939118A147A8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Dear Dario,</div><div id=3D"AppleMailS= ignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Somewhat in line with Pet= er Lennox' comment might be the findings of old experiments on the discrimin= ation of 10-tone sequences of 400 ms by Watson and his colleagues in the 197= 0's and '80's, and those of the identification of the temporal order of 3 br= ief tones, in isolation or in a longer sequnce, by Divenyi and Hirsh, also i= n the 1970's (papers mostly published in JASA and P&P). While the total d= uration of these sequences is shorter than that of the sounds of your intere= st, those studies investigated the effect of parametric changes on various d= imensions and, to the extent that the findings could be extrapolated to long= er sounds, they could point to sources of variability that Peter refers to.<= /div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"= >Pierre<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Feb 3, 2017, at 05:07, Pet= er Lennox <<a href=3D"mailto:P.Lennox@xxxxxxxx">P.Lennox@xxxxxxxx</= a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:#0563C1; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:#954F72; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I=E2=80=99m s= truggling to understand how one could talk about the maximum temporal window= independently of discussion of the dimensions of =E2=80=98interrelatedness=E2=80=99. Your example of a sequence of different= pitches (though you don=E2=80=99t mention timbre/harmonic content, or envel= ope structure) presumes differences in the frequency domain, but similarity i= n other respects, is that right?<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">So your find= ings might, for argument=E2=80=99s sake, vary according to the degree of int= errelatedness (or at least, the degree of =E2=80=98similarity=E2=80=99 along several dimensions).<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Similarly, i= f similarity were very high (i.e. identical =E2=80=93 a loop) =E2=80=93 the m= aximum temporal window might actually be the maximum possible under any circumstances, speculatively.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In that cont= ext (=E2=80=98looping=E2=80=99), my students, in an exercise to synthesise 1= 0 minute spatial soundscapes (in ambisonics) often try to get away with looping some ambient background material of, say 2 mins. After re= peated listening of the whole piece, by the third time, the loops are very n= oticeable, to me (and much to the students=E2=80=99 surprise). But that=E2=80= =99s because particular features are identical, the listener is accustomed to hearing loops (even expecting them) and proba= bly various other factors.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Whether this= sheds any light on interrelated-but-not-identical, I=E2=80=99ve no idea. Bu= t it=E2=80=99s not very compatible with the =E2=80=98tape recorder=E2=80=99 metaphor, and is more akin to an example of Cocktail Party Effect.<o:p></o:= p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Regards<o:p>= </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">ppl<o:p></o:= p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> <= /o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dr. Peter Le= nnox<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Senior Lectu= rer in Perception<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">College of A= rts<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">University o= f Derby, UK<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">e: <a href=3D"mailto:p.lennox@xxxxxxxx"><span style=3D"color:blue">p.lennox@xxxxxxxx= derby.ac.uk</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">t: 01332 593= 155<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"https://derby.academia.edu/p= eterlennox"><span style=3D"color:blue">https://derby.academia.edu/peterlenno= x</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"https://www.researchgate.net= /profile/Peter_Lennox"><span style=3D"color:blue">https://www.researchgate.n= et/profile/Peter_Lennox</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> <= /o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon= t-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US= " style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> AUD= ITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= GILL.CA">mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dario Sanfilippo<br> <b>Sent:</b> 01 February 2017 14:40<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= .CA</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Maximum temporal window for pattern recognition and the perc= eption of redundancy<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Aria= l",sans-serif">Hello, dear list.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Aria= l",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Aria= l",sans-serif">I would like to ask you a couple of questions and I will= be very grateful if you could help me. It would be great to be pointed out t= o specific publications, thank you so much in advance for that.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Aria= l",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Aria= l",sans-serif">The first question is on the maximum temporal window for= the recognition of patterns in long-term audio events. Generally speaking, w= hat is the largest (temporal) distance between audio events so that we can still process such events as interrelated? As a= n example, let's assume to have a sequence of different pitches equally spac= ed in time; what is the largest possible distance between them to still be a= ble to perceive a melody?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Aria= l",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Aria= l",sans-serif">The second question is on the perception of redundancy i= n relatively complex (i.e., dynamical equilibrium) long-term audio events. A= s an example, think of the sound of the sea: its internal structure is never the same although it keeps a strong identit= y from a global point of view. I believe that this is highly dependent on bo= th the cultural background of the listener as well as the degree of complexi= ty of the audio event itself, but is there any study which tries to relate the perception of redundancy (= i.e., the moment in which the listener's attention drops) with a specific te= mporal window? And is there a connection or similarity between this window a= nd the one described in my first question?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Aria= l",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Aria= l",sans-serif">Thank you and best wishes.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Aria= l",sans-serif"><br clear=3D"all"> </span><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p><= /span></p> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Aria= l",sans-serif">Dario<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <br> <br> The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves t= he right to monitor email traffic. <br> If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and= let them know.<br> <br> Key University contacts: <a href=3D"http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/">ht= tp://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/</a> </div></blockquote></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-FAA62EE4-B8B0-4B78-B4B8-939118A147A8--