Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Question: same/different judgments across domains. From: Bob Carlyon <Bob.Carlyon@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 14:37:38 +0000--_000_4e1eea9a7df249afb373e2be3046a0a9mrccbucamacuk_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Max, Congratulations on your first post - it's a good one! Your question reminded me of a paper by MacPherson & McDermott<https://www.= pnas.org/content/117/50/32169> which I have seen in poster form and keep me= aning to read :) They showed that frequency discrimination of inharmonic & harmonic sounds w= as "comparable" when presented with no silent gap, but that at long inter-s= timulus delays performance was better for the harmonic sounds. It may be th= at storing sounds in short-term (rather than echoic) memory is easier for t= he harmonic sounds because, as they argue, the F0 allows a "compressed" rep= resentation. So it may well be that for a same-different judgement for shor= t sounds and with only a short gap between them, the domains won't have any= effect but that could be that listeners aren't really using "pitch" to do = the task. Interestingly, though, detection of FM in noise is easier for harmonic than= for inharmonic sounds even though one can perform a within-sound compariso= n of the pitch change - as shown back in 1989 by (self-promotion alert) Car= lyon & Stubbs (J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 85, p. 2563-2674). So it could be that p= resenting the stimuli in noise will require subjects to use "real" pitch, e= ven without the need to store in short-term memory, and then you might see = the domain effects you are looking for and one could check for the use of d= ifferent strategies by varying the ISI Hope this helps Bob From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>= On Behalf Of Max Henry Sent: 07 May 2021 19:20 To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Question: same/different judgments across domains. Hi folks. Long time listener, first time caller... Some friends of mind are setting up an experiment with same/different judge= ments between pairs of sounds. They want to test sounds from a variety of d= omains: speech, music, natural sounds, etc. One of the researchers suggested that listeners will have different listeni= ng strategies depending on the domain, and this might pose a problem for th= e experiment: our sensitivity for difference in pitch, for example, might b= e very acute for musical sounds but much less-so for speech sounds. I have a hunch that if the stimuli were short enough, this might sidestep t= he problem. Ie, if I played you 250 milliseconds of speech, or 250 millisec= onds of music, you would not necessarily use any particular domain-specific= listening strategy to tell the difference. It would simply be "sound." I suspect this is because a sound that's sufficiently short can stay entire= ly in echoic memory. For longer sounds, you have to consolidate the informa= tion somehow, and the way that you consolidate it has to do with the kind o= f domain it falls into. For speech sounds, we can throw away the acute pitc= h information. But that's just a hunch. I'm wondering if this rings true for any of you, t= hat is to say, if it reminds you of any particular research. I'd love to re= ad about it. It's been a pleasure to follow these e-mails. I'm glad to finally have an e= xcuse to write. Wishing you all well. Max Henry (he/his) Graduate Researcher and Teaching Assistant Music Technology Area McGill University. www.linkedin.com/in/maxshenry<http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxshenry> github.com/maxsolomonhenry<https://github.com/maxsolomonhenry> www.maxhenrymusic.com/<https://www.maxhenrymusic.com/> --_000_4e1eea9a7df249afb373e2be3046a0a9mrccbucamacuk_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:= //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"= > <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Wingdings; panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;} p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0 {mso-style-name:msonormal; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;} span.EmailStyle19 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Max,<o:p></o:p></sp= an></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Congratulations on your = first post – it’s a good one!<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Your question reminded m= e of a paper by <a href=3D"https://www.pnas.org/content/117/50/32169">MacPherson & McDe= rmott</a> which I have seen in poster form and keep meaning to read </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;mso-fareast-la= nguage:EN-US">J</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal= ibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">They showed that frequen= cy discrimination of inharmonic & harmonic sounds was “comparable= ” when presented with no silent gap, but that at long inter-stimulus delays performance was better for the harmonic sounds. It may be that stor= ing sounds in short-term (rather than echoic) memory is easier for the harm= onic sounds because, as they argue, the F0 allows a “compressed”= ; representation. So it may well be that for a same-different judgement for short sounds and with only a short gap betw= een them, the domains won’t have any effect but that could be that li= steners aren’t really using “pitch” to do the task. <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Interestingly, though, d= etection of FM in noise is easier for harmonic than for inharmonic sounds e= ven though one can perform a within-sound comparison of the pitch change – as shown back in 1989 by (self-promotion alert= ) Carlyon & Stubbs (J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 85, p. 2563-2674). So it could = be that presenting the stimuli in noise will require subjects to use “= ;real” pitch, even without the need to store in short-term memory, and then you might see the domain effects you are looki= ng for and one could check for the use of different strategies by varying t= he ISI<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hope this helps<o:p></o:= p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Bob<o:p></o:p></span></p= > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span>= </p> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo= nt-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-= US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> = AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Max Henry<br> <b>Sent:</b> 07 May 2021 19:20<br> <b>To:</b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<br> <b>Subject:</b> Question: same/different judgments across domains.<o:p></o:= p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black">Hi folks. Long time listener, first tim= e caller... <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black">Some friends of mind are setting up an = experiment with same/different judgements between pairs of sounds. They wan= t to test sounds from a variety of domains: speech, music, natural sounds, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black">One of the researchers suggested that l= isteners will have different listening strategies depending on the domain, = and this might pose a problem for the experiment: our sensitivity for difference in pitch, for example, might be very acute = for musical sounds but much less-so for speech sounds.<o:p></o:p></span></p= > </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black">I have a hunch that if the stimuli were= short enough, this might sidestep the problem. Ie, if I played you 250 mil= liseconds of speech, or 250 milliseconds of music, you would not necessarily use any particular domain-specific listening str= ategy to tell the difference. It would simply be “sound.”<o:p><= /o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black">I suspect this is because a sound that&= #8217;s sufficiently short can stay entirely in echoic memory. For longer s= ounds, you have to consolidate the information somehow, and the way that you consolidate it has to do with the kind of domain it f= alls into. For speech sounds, we can throw away the acute pitch information= . <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black">But that’s just a hunch. I’= m wondering if this rings true for any of you, that is to say, if it remind= s you of any particular research. I’d love to read about it.<o:p></o:= p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black">It's been a pleasure to follow these e-= mails. I'm glad to finally have an excuse to write. Wishing you all well.<o= :p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div id=3D"Signature"> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"= ;Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Max Henry</span></b><span style=3D"f= ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">&nb= sp;(he/his)<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black">Graduate Researcher and Teaching Assist= ant<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black">Music Technology Area<o:p></o:p></span>= </p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"= ;Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">McGill University</span></b><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:bl= ack">.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black"><a href=3D"http://www.linkedin.com/in/m= axshenry"><span style=3D"color:#174E86">www.linkedin.com/in/maxshenry</span= ></a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black"><a href=3D"https://github.com/maxsolomo= nhenry"><span style=3D"color:#174E86">github.com/maxsolomonhenry</span></a>= <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri",sans-serif;color:black"><a href=3D"https://www.maxhenrymusic.co= m/"><span style=3D"color:#174E86">www.maxhenrymusic.com/</span></a><o:p></o= :p></span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html> --_000_4e1eea9a7df249afb373e2be3046a0a9mrccbucamacuk_--