Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Responses to "listening to your tinnitus" From: PIerre DIVENYI <pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 08:08:07 -0700--Apple-Mail-E95D0C17-1B34-4DD9-A342-56C7E2B8D2C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, Fatima, Koichi, Not being familiar with MBCT, I was asking the question what particular audi= tory dimension or dimensions Brian was focusing when his tinnitus became bea= rable. I wish he continued participating in the discussion, after all it is h= is particular tinnitus we are all talking about. Best wishes to all, wear your mask in public, Pierre Sent from my autocorrecting iPad > On Aug 20, 2021, at 21:46, Dan McCloy <dan@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Pierre,=20 > Many MBCT exercises are simply about focusing and directing your attention= toward specific sensory input, which can be from "external" senses like sme= ll and taste (e.g., the "tasting the raisin" exercise) or can be from "inter= nal" senses like proprioception, pain or hunger signals, etc (e.g., the "bod= y scan" exercise). I think Fatima is exactly right that Brian's practice of= careful attention toward the character of his tinnitus bears many similarit= ies to those kinds of MBCT exercises. Can you explain why exactly you think= they are not similar? >=20 > -- dan > Daniel McCloy > https://dan.mccloy.info > Research Scientist > Institute for Learning and Brain Sciences > University of Washington >=20 > =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original M= essage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 >> On Friday, August 20th, 2021 at 12:49 AM, PIerre DIVENYI <pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx= STANFORD.EDU> wrote: >> Fatima, Brian, >>=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t think you are talking about the same thing. Brian=E2=80=99= s proposal can=E2=80=99t be considered a varietal of mind-body training. It i= s sensory awareness of an individual acoustic object, if this description fi= ts Brian=E2=80=99s tinnitus. Although, as he says, it=E2=80=99s not =E2=80=9C= tonal,=E2=80=9D it has tonal components. My suggestion is to try to match th= e pitch of one or several of the components and even write it down. If it is= pulsating, identify its rhythm and, again, write it down. Since this is not= hing else but a stimulus-less auditory object matching psychoacoustic task, i= t could also lead to identifying its properties and its night-by-night vari= ability. And doing this experiment would not take away your observation that= awareness of the auditory properties of the tinnitus makes it less annoying= . >>=20 >> My two-penny thoughts inspired by 50 years in bed with psychoacoustics. >> Pierre >>=20 >> Sent from my autocorrecting iPad >>=20 >>>> On Aug 19, 2021, at 21:50, Fatima Husain <husainf@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>> Hi Brian >>>=20 >>> I will attempt to answer. What you are describing seems like the "sounds= and thoughts" meditation, which is one of the mindfulness-based cognitive t= raining (MBCT) exercises, where the individual meditates on their body's sou= nds & external sounds, including their tinnitus (if they have it). We conduc= ted an MBCT intervention for adults with bothersome tinnitus and found that a= great majority were helped by an 8-week MBCT course. When we were designing= the experiment, we were worried if this particular exercise would exacerbat= e someone's tinnitus and we gave directions to the instructors accordingly. B= ut, we found that no one complained about listening to or being intensely aw= are of their tinnitus in this context. There have been several published rep= orts of MBCT being useful and if they all did the standard MBCT, then it wou= ld include this type of meditation. Other psychology-based treatments may al= so include such meditation exercises. No published report, to my knowledge, h= as weighed in on the relative merits of different aspects of MBCT or similar= plans.=20 >>>=20 >>> Hope this helps, >>> Fatima=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 11:57 PM Brian Gygi <bgygi@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> Hello, I received several responses to my post on "listening to your ti= nnitus" in which I described a method I had found that seemed to alleviate m= y tinnitus. Unfortunately, all of the posts described methods in which an a= coustic signal is present to the ear with frequencies that match (or mask) t= he tinnitus, which is different from what I was talking about. =20 >>>>=20 >>>> The method I was describing involved actually focusing on the tinnitus,= not an auditory stimulus. I can hear out some of the individual tones in m= y tinnitus, and I find when I do this the tinnitus seems to lessen in severi= ty. >>>>=20 >>>> So, does anyone know of any work that that been done in this area? =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, >>>> Brian Gygi >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Fatima T. Husain, Ph.D. >>> Professor, Dept. of Speech and Hearing Science and >>> The Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology >>> Faculty Affiliate Neuroscience Program and Computational Science and Eng= ineering >>> Auditory Cognitive Neuroscience Lab >>> University of Illinois >>> husainf@xxxxxxxx >>> www.acnlab.com >>>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-E95D0C17-1B34-4DD9-A342-56C7E2B8D2C6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Dan, Fatima, Koichi,<div><br></div><div>Not= being familiar with MBCT, I was asking the question what particular auditor= y dimension or dimensions Brian was focusing when his tinnitus became bearab= le. I wish he continued participating in the discussion, after all it is his= particular tinnitus we are all talking about.</div><div><br></div><div>Best= wishes to all, wear your mask in public,</div><div>Pierre</div><div><br><di= v dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my autocorrecting iPad</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><bl= ockquote type=3D"cite">On Aug 20, 2021, at 21:46, Dan McCloy <dan@xxxxxxxx= info> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir= =3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div>Pierre, <br></div><div>Many MBCT exercises are simply= about focusing and directing your attention toward specific sensory input, w= hich can be from "external" senses like smell and taste (e.g., the "tasting t= he raisin" exercise) or can be from "internal" senses like proprioception, p= ain or hunger signals, etc (e.g., the "body scan" exercise). I think Fa= tima is exactly right that Brian's practice of careful attention toward the c= haracter of his tinnitus bears many similarities to those kinds of MBCT exer= cises. Can you explain why exactly you think they are not simila= r?<br></div><div><br></div><div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block"><div cl= ass=3D"protonmail_signature_block-user"><div>-- dan<br></div><div>Daniel McC= loy<br></div><div>https://dan.mccloy.info<br></div><div>Research Scientist<b= r></div><div>Institute for Learning and Brain Sciences<br></div><div>Univers= ity of Washington<br></div></div><div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-pr= oton protonmail_signature_block-empty"></div></div><div><br></div><div class= =3D"protonmail_quote"> =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Orig= inal Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90= <br> On Friday, August 20th, 2021 at 12:49 AM, PIerre DIVENYI <pdiveny= i@xxxxxxxx> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"protonmail_quote" type=3D"cite"> <div dir=3D"ltr">Fatima, Brian,<div><br></div><div>I don=E2=80=99= t think you are talking about the same thing. Brian=E2=80=99s proposal can=E2= =80=99t be considered a varietal of mind-body training. It is sensory awaren= ess of an individual acoustic object, if this description fits Brian=E2=80=99= s tinnitus. Although, as he says, it=E2=80=99s not =E2=80=9Ctonal,=E2=80=9D i= t has tonal components. My suggestion is to try to match the pitch of one or= several of the components and even write it down. If it is pulsating, ident= ify its rhythm and, again, write it down. Since this is nothing else but a s= timulus-less auditory object matching psychoacoustic task, it could also lea= d to identifying its properties and its night-by-night variability. An= d doing this experiment would not take away your observation that awareness o= f the auditory properties of the tinnitus makes it less annoying.</div><div>= <br></div><div>My two-penny thoughts inspired by 50 years in bed with psycho= acoustics.</div><div>Pierre<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my autocorrect= ing iPad</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Aug 19, 2021= , at 21:50, Fatima Husain <husainf@xxxxxxxx> wrote:<br><br></blockqu= ote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"lt= r"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Brian<div><br></div><div>I will attempt to answer. Wh= at you are describing seems like the "sounds and thoughts" meditation, which= is one of the mindfulness-based cognitive training (MBCT) exercises, where t= he individual meditates on their body's sounds & external sounds, includ= ing their tinnitus (if they have it). We conducted an MBCT intervention= for adults with bothersome tinnitus and found that a great majority were he= lped by an 8-week MBCT course. When we were designing the experiment, we wer= e worried if this particular exercise would exacerbate someone's tinnit= us and we gave directions to the instructors accordingly. But, we found= that no one complained about listening to or being intensely aware of their= tinnitus in this context. There have been several published reports of= MBCT being useful and if they all did the standard MBCT, then it would incl= ude this type of meditation. Other psychology-based treatments may also incl= ude such meditation exercises. No published report, to my knowledge, has wei= ghed in on the relative merits of different aspects of MBCT or similar plans= . </div><div><br></div><div>Hope this helps,</div><div>Fatima </di= v></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Aug 18, 2021= at 11:57 PM Brian Gygi <<a href=3D"mailto:bgygi@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"norefe= rrer nofollow noopener">bgygi@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote s= tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd= ing-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><u></u> <div> <div> Hello, I received several responses to my post on "listening to your tinn= itus" in which I described a method I had found that seemed to alleviate my t= innitus. Unfortunately, all of the posts described methods in which an= acoustic signal is present to the ear with frequencies that match (or mask)= the tinnitus, which is different from what I was talking about. = </div> <div> <br> </div> <div> The method I was describing involved actually focusing on the tinnitus, n= ot an auditory stimulus. I can hear out some of the individual tones i= n my tinnitus, and I find when I do this the tinnitus seems to lessen in sev= erity. </div> <div> <br> </div> <div> So, does anyone know of any work that that been done in this area? &= nbsp; </div> <div> <br> </div> <div> Thanks, </div> <div> Brian Gygi </div> </div> </blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr">= <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Fatima T. Husain, Ph.D.<br>Professor,= Dept. of Speech and Hearing Science and</div><div>The Beckman Institute for= Advanced Science and Technology<br>Faculty Affiliate Neuroscience Program a= nd Computational Science and Engineering<br>Auditory Cognitive Neuroscience L= ab<br>University of Illinois<br><a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:husainf@xxxxxxxx= illinois.edu" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener">husainf@xxxxxxxx</a><= br><a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.acnlab.com" rel=3D"noreferrer nof= ollow noopener">www.acnlab.com</a></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></d= iv> </div></blockquote></div></div> </blockquote><br> </div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-E95D0C17-1B34-4DD9-A342-56C7E2B8D2C6--