Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] [External] Re: arXiv web of trust From: Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 11:52:36 -0400--0000000000002db11805fdc87a2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all I don't think it should be made overly complicated. Presuming to judge someone's background, privilege or character based purely on the colour of their skin is unfair prejudice. It is simply fallacious to argue from the premise that because a large (shrinking) proportion of people in position X are of demographic Y, that any person in that position of that demographic is there unfairly. It is reductive, anti-human and it is prejudicial, the very reasons we now claim are invalid reasons for people to have been put into positions of power in the first place. That doesn't mean that there hasn't been or continues to be unfairness, but it can't be addressed by blindly thrashing with more yet unfairness at the individual level. The point is that no progress is made if the unfairness of the past is addressed by instituting yet more unfairness for future generations to have to sort out. That way madness lies. The real problem is the rigidity and lack of expansion in cultural spaces. Everybody is competing for the same number of cultural "slots" as they were competing for hundreds of years ago with populations a fraction of their previous size. The only way to begin to fix these sorts of injustices systemically is to recognize individuality, and to understand that that produces diverse outcomes. We need to afford individuals with sufficient cultural space. To give a silly comparison Bach was running multiple professional choirs and orchestras in Leipzig, writing a new Cantata every week, when the city had a population of maybe 20000 souls. Shakespeare's England had a similar population to modern Moldova. We cannot progress with this issue until it is recognized that we are squabbling over who gets to eat the last crumbs of a dwindling pie while enforcing norms that ensure that no-one else get to bake new pies. Preprint servers are not the solution to this problem. But it's a start. Douglas Scott On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 at 04:35, Vani Rajendran <vani.g.rajendran@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > I'm sorry if I'm being thick but what exactly is the difference? > > If the cards are being stacked against rather than in favor... ok... but > who benefits from the stacking? Who decides the stacking? > > Vani > > > > On Fri, Jun 9, 2023, 22:11 Les Bernstein <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> I agree with Ken's views, save for this statement: >> >> >> >> *The cards are stacked in favor of those with privilege... *No, the >> cards are stacked *against *those unfairly denied opportunity and >> dignity. The difference is both non-trivial and crucial. >> >> Les >> >> On 6/9/2023 4:12 PM, Ken Grant wrote: >> >> *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, openin= g >> attachments or clicking on links. *** >> Thank you Alexandria for expressing what it means to have systemic >> obstacles and barriers to success throughout our society. Folks got upse= t >> when the Black Lives Matter movement took off because they were wonderin= g >> "don't White Lives Matter as well". Anyone who felt this way misundersto= od >> the entire enterprise. Nobody ever claimed that white lives don't matter= , >> or matter more, or matter less. A good friend suggested that, if the Bla= ck >> Lives Matter movement had printed signs that read "Black Lives Matter To= o". >> While I understood his point and that I can see how this might have help= ed >> white male americans feel better, this too misses the point. Centuries o= f >> inequities do not get wiped away in an instant. Declaring racism over is= a >> monstrous error. Some scientists rise to the top of their fields by work= ing >> very very hard. But as the cartoon displayed, not all children, >> adolescents, or teens have the same opportunities. The cards are stacked= in >> favor of those with privilege, and your comment that recognizing this fa= ct >> might make us more willing and able to consider these systemic obstacles= . >> >> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:15=E2=80=AFAM Bernstein,Leslie <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx= c.edu> >> wrote: >> >>> I disagree. I think I understand the points and the reality quite well= . >>> >>> Les >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* "Lesicko, Alexandria" <Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= u >>> > >>> *Date:* Thu, Jun 8, 2023, 5:06 PM >>> *To:* "Bernstein,Leslie" <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx>, AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= A >>> *Subject:* Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust >>> >>> *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, >>> opening attachments or clicking on links. *** >>> >>> I think it's important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the >>> "reference level." The societal inequities that exist are not because = I >>> and other "white guys" (i.e., the "Richards" in the cartoon) were given >>> some *undeserved* privilege but, rather, because some minorities and >>> cultures (i.e., the Paula's in the cartoon) have been unfairly denied *= their >>> *due. I think it very much matters where one perceives the unfairness >>> to be. >>> >>> >>> >>> *I think you are missing the main point of the cartoons that have been >>> shared here. They are meant to illustrate the point that our gender, >>> racial, etc. identities and economic realities shape our experiences an= d >>> opportunities in science and in the world. This benefits some people an= d >>> works against others. The =E2=80=9Cperceived unfairness=E2=80=9D isn=E2= =80=99t on one side of the >>> coin or the other, it is all a product of the same system.* >>> >>> >>> >>> I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to be misguided folly = I >>> will not apologize for what I have accomplished and for what I have. I= t >>> was not handed to me. For those who still don't understand, I'll say i= t >>> again. The social injustice lies in the fact that the less fortunate >>> (often minority cultures and ethnicities) have been denied the opportun= ity >>> and dignity they deserve as human beings. That is where we must focus = our >>> efforts for change. >>> >>> >>> >>> *I think this is also a misunderstanding - I don=E2=80=99t think that t= he >>> concept of privilege invokes self-loathing. Nobody is asking you to >>> apologize and hate yourself for whatever privileges you may have. Furth= er, >>> nobody is saying that you have not worked hard for your accomplishments= . My >>> understanding of acknowledging privilege is that it is about humility >>> rather than self-loathing. For example, understanding that my path in l= ife >>> and in my career may have looked different and involved more obstacles = if I >>> were a person of color, queer, disabled, etc. You can still be proud of >>> your accomplishments and your hard work while acknowledging this. I als= o >>> don=E2=80=99t think acknowledging privilege is the end goal in these di= scussions or >>> an exercise unto itself, but a necessary step in the process of beginni= ng >>> to tackle the social injustices that you mention above. If we cannot fi= rst >>> admit that these factors play a role in our trajectories, then it is ha= rd >>> to get any further in enacting change - we are blind to what we are try= ing >>> to tackle.* >>> >>> >>> >>> It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any >>> hierarchy, there are biases that come into play. That's because they a= re >>> all human endeavors. Matters of degree count! In our field of auditor= y >>> science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have >>> asserted that discriminatory factors *must *be at play to a *substantia= l >>> degree*. I think that is patently false and my observations across >>> decades support that belief. >>> >>> >>> >>> *You cannot say that because you have not experienced or witnessed >>> discrimination in this field that it does not exist. All you can say is >>> that you have not experienced or witnessed it. Other people on this thr= ead >>> are telling you that their experiences have been different (and citing >>> literature that points to the existence of bias and discrimination at >>> large). Again, it is important to listen to and acknowledge the experie= nces >>> of other people if we want to address social injustice. People from >>> different demographic backgrounds can have radically different experien= ces >>> of the same community. You can simultaneously take pride in your field = and >>> your community and want to make it better.* >>> >>> >>> >>> Some of you have acted as "scientists" drawing conclusions on the basis >>> of essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personally, mu= st >>> have a myopic view because you assume that I'm just another fairly >>> successful old white guy. Shame on you. You know nothing of my histor= y >>> and that of my family. You commit the genetic fallacy, that of evaluat= ing >>> an idea on the basis of *who *generated the idea, rather than on the >>> merits of the idea, *per se*. In so doing, you commit the very sin >>> that you decry so vociferously in self-righteous fashion! >>> >>> >>> >>> *It seems that most people are replying directly to what you said, >>> point-by-point, not assuming that you must be myopic because you are, a= s >>> you describe, a =E2=80=9Cfairly successful old white guy=E2=80=9D. **= =F0=9F=98=8A * >>> >>> >>> >>> I suggest that you read this excellent work >>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/6= 96856/woke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/__;!!Cn_UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiH= Vy_INKv0r3PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-NjlpyLdKM4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSx= x7WGig$> >>> by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter. >>> >>> >>> >>> This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific >>> results. I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to th= at >>> topic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List. >>> >>> >>> >>> *I don=E2=80=99t think that these topics are inappropriate and are actu= ally very >>> important and beneficial to discuss.* >>> >>> >>> >>> Les >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < >>> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Les Bernstein < >>> lbernstein@xxxxxxxx> >>> *Date: *Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:10 AM >>> *To: *AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> >>> *Subject: *[External] Re: arXiv web of trust >>> >>> I think it's important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the >>> "reference level." The societal inequities that exist are not because = I >>> and other "white guys" (i.e., the "Richards" in the cartoon) were given >>> some *undeserved* privilege but, rather, because some minorities and >>> cultures (i.e., the Paula's in the cartoon) have been unfairly denied *= their >>> *due. I think it very much matters where one perceives the unfairness >>> to be. >>> >>> I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to be misguided folly = I >>> will not apologize for what I have accomplished and for what I have. I= t >>> was not handed to me. For those who still don't understand, I'll say i= t >>> again. The social injustice lies in the fact that the less fortunate >>> (often minority cultures and ethnicities) have been denied the opportun= ity >>> and dignity they deserve as human beings. That is where we must focus = our >>> efforts for change. >>> >>> It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any >>> hierarchy, there are biases that come into play. That's because they a= re >>> all human endeavors. Matters of degree count! In our field of auditor= y >>> science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have >>> asserted that discriminatory factors *must *be at play to a *substantia= l >>> degree*. I think that is patently false and my observations across >>> decades support that belief. >>> >>> Some of you have acted as "scientists" drawing conclusions on the basis >>> of essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personally, mu= st >>> have a myopic view because you assume that I'm just another fairly >>> successful old white guy. Shame on you. You know nothing of my histor= y >>> and that of my family. You commit the genetic fallacy, that of evaluat= ing >>> an idea on the basis of *who *generated the idea, rather than on the >>> merits of the idea, *per se*. In so doing, you commit the very sin >>> that you decry so vociferously in self-righteous fashion! >>> >>> I suggest that you read this excellent work >>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/6= 96856/woke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/__;!!Cn_UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiH= Vy_INKv0r3PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-NjlpyLdKM4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSx= x7WGig$> >>> by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter. >>> >>> This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific >>> results. I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to th= at >>> topic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List. >>> >>> Les >>> >>> On 6/4/2023 9:24 PM, Svirsky, Mario wrote: >>> >>> *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, >>> opening attachments or clicking on links. *** >>> >>> I have a small contribution to the very interesting conversation betwee= n >>> Matt Winn and Les Bernstein. >>> >>> >>> >>> I recommend those of you who are also interested in this conversation >>> watch =E2=80=9CPicture a Scientist=E2=80=9D, which is on Netflix in the= U.S. until June 12. >>> It is a fascinating description of some of the obstacles faced by women= in >>> general and black women in particular, in academia. >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree with Les that, ideally, status as a researcher should be earned >>> by a person=E2=80=99s contributions to their field. The problem is that= in the real >>> world women get fewer resources and less recognition than men given the >>> same intellect and productivity. Ditto for minorities. =E2=80=9CPicture= a >>> Scientist=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t even get into the issues of class, n= ationality, or able >>> bodiedness, which are also important. >>> >>> >>> >>> Or instead of watching Picture a Scientist (which, after all, will take >>> you 103 minutes), you could invest just two minutes in reading the cart= oon >>> below. About the concept of having things handed to you on a plate (or >>> =E2=80=9Cbeing born on third base and thinking you hit a triple=E2=80= =9D, a quote >>> attributed to Barry Switzer, 1986). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mario A. Svirsky, Ph.D. >>> >>> Noel L. Cohen Professor of Hearing Science, >>> >>> Professor of Otolaryngology (School of Medicine) and Neural Science >>> >>> Vice-Chairman for Research >>> >>> Department of Otolaryngology >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Address:* >>> >>> Dept. of Otolaryngology *Phone *(direct)*:* >>> 212-263-7217 >>> >>> NYU Langone Medical Center *Fax:* >>> 212-263-7604 or 212-263-8257 >>> >>> 550 First Ave., >>> NBV-5E5 >>> >>> New York, NY 10016 >>> >>> >>> >>> Pronouns: he, him, his >>> >>> >>> >>> *CONFIDENTIAL - NYU SCHOOL OF MEDICINE SENSITIVE DOCUMENT* >>> >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=9CThis email message, including any attachments, is for the sole= use of >>> the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprieta= ry, >>> confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any >>> unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If= you >>> have received this email in error please notify the sender by return em= ail >>> and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should chec= k >>> this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The >>> organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus >>> transmitted by this email.=E2=80=9D >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. **| *Professor Emeritus >>> >>> Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of >>> Medicine >>> 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 >>> Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 >>> >>> >> >> -- >> *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. **| *Professor Emeritus >> Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of >> Medicine >> 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 >> Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 >> >> >> --0000000000002db11805fdc87a2f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi all</div><div><br></div>I don't think it shoul= d be made overly complicated.<div><br></div><div>Presuming to judge someone= 's background, privilege or character based purely on the colour of the= ir skin is unfair prejudice. It is simply fallacious to argue from the prem= ise that because a large (shrinking) proportion of people in position X are= of demographic Y, that any person in that position of that demographic is = there unfairly. It is reductive, anti-human and it is prejudicial, the very= reasons we now claim are invalid reasons for people to have been put into = positions of power in the first place.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>That = doesn't mean that there hasn't been or continues to be unfairness, = but it can't be addressed by blindly thrashing with more yet unfairness= at the individual level. The point is that no progress is made if the unfa= irness of the past is addressed by instituting yet more unfairness for futu= re generations to have to sort out. That way madness lies.</div><div><br></= div><div>The real problem is the rigidity and lack of expansion in cultural= spaces. Everybody is competing for the same number of cultural "slots= " as they were competing for hundreds of years ago with populations a = fraction of their previous size. The only way to begin to fix these sorts o= f injustices systemically is to recognize individuality, and to understand = that that produces diverse outcomes. We need to afford individuals with suf= ficient cultural space.</div><div><br></div><div>To give a silly comparison= Bach was running multiple professional choirs and orchestras in Leipzig, w= riting a new Cantata every week, when the city had a population of maybe 20= 000 souls. Shakespeare's England had a similar population to modern Mol= dova.</div><div><br></div><div>We cannot progress with this issue until it = is recognized that we are squabbling over who gets to eat the last crumbs o= f a dwindling pie while enforcing norms that ensure that no-one else get to= bake new pies.</div><div><br></div><div>Preprint servers are not the solut= ion to this problem. But it's a start.</div><div><br></div><div>Douglas= Scott</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"= gmail_attr">On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 at 04:35, Vani Rajendran <<a href=3D"mai= lto:vani.g.rajendran@xxxxxxxx">vani.g.rajendran@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<b= r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex= ;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"= ><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px" dir=3D"auto">I'm sorry if I'm bein= g thick but what exactly is the difference?</div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D= "font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:12.8px">I= f the cards are being stacked against rather than in favor... ok... but who= benefits from the stacking? Who decides the stacking?</div><div dir=3D"aut= o" style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-siz= e:12.8px">Vani</div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div>= <div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" st= yle=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto">= <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 9, 2023, 22:11 Les Bernst= ein <<a href=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div>= <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> =20 <div> <div><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I agree with Ken's views, save for this statement:<= br> <br> <i>The cards are stacked in favor of those with privilege...<br> <br> </i>No, the cards are stacked <i><b>against </b></i>those unfairly denied opportunity and dignity.=C2=A0 The difference is bo= th non-trivial and crucial.<br> <br> Les<br> </font><br> On 6/9/2023 4:12 PM, Ken Grant wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> =20 <div style=3D"background-color:rgb(213,234,255);padding:0.8em"> <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(255,0,0);text-align:center;f= ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. ***</div> </div> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Thank you Alexandria for expressing what it means to have systemic obstacles and barriers to success throughout our society. Folks=C2=A0got upset when the Black Lives Matter movement took off because they were wondering "don't White Lives Mat= ter as well". Anyone who felt this=C2=A0way misunderstood the ent= ire enterprise. Nobody ever claimed that white lives don't=C2=A0matter, or matter more, or matter less. A good f= riend suggested that, if the Black Lives Matter movement had printed signs that read "Black Lives Matter Too". Whi= le I understood his point and that I can see how this might have helped white male americans feel better, this too misses the point. Centuries of inequities do not get wiped away in an instant. Declaring racism over is a monstrous=C2=A0error. Some scientists rise to the top of their fields by working very very hard. But as the cartoon displayed, not all children, adolescents, or teens have the same opportunities. The cards are stacked in favor of those with privilege,=C2=A0and your comment that recognizing this fact might make us more willing and able to consider these systemic obstacles.</div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:15=E2=80=AFAM Bernstein,Leslie <<a href=3D"mailto:lbernst= ein@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D= "_blank">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8= ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div> <div lang=3D"EN-US"> <div dir=3D"ltr">I disagree.=C2=A0 I think I understand the points and the reality quite well. <div><br> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr">Les </div> </div> <hr> <b>From:</b> "Lesicko, Alexandria" <<a hr= ef=3D"mailto:Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer n= oreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= edicine.upenn.edu</a>><br> <b>Date:</b> Thu, Jun 8, 2023, 5:06 PM<br> <b>To:</b> "Bernstein,Leslie" <<a href=3D"mail= to:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"= target=3D"_blank">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>>, <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferr= er noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= L.CA</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust<br> <br> <div> <div style=3D"background-color:rgb(213,234,255);padding:0= .8em"> <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(255,0,0);text-al= ign:center;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">*** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. ***</div> </div> <div> <div> <p>I think it's important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the "reference level."=C2=A0 The societal= inequities that exist are not because I and other "white guys" (i.e., the "Richards" in the c= artoon) were given some <b><i>undeserved</i></b><i> </i>privileg= e but, rather, because some minorities and cultures (i.e., the Paula's in the cartoon) hav= e been unfairly denied <b><i>their </i></b>due.=C2=A0 I think it very much matters where one perceives the unfairness to be.</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p><b>I think you are missing the main point of the cartoons that have been shared here. They are meant to illustrate the point that our gender, racial, etc. identities and economic realities shape our experiences and opportunities in science and in the world. This benefits some people and works against others. The =E2=80=9Cperceived unfairness=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t on one side of = the coin or the other, it is all a product of the same system.</b></p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to b= e misguided folly=C2=A0 I will not apologize for what= I have accomplished and for what I have.=C2=A0 It was not handed to me.=C2=A0 For those who still don'= ;t understand, I'll say it again.=C2=A0 The social injustice lies in the fact that the less fortunate (often minority cultures and ethnicities) have been denied the opportunity and dignity they deserve as human beings.=C2=A0 Tha= t is where we must focus our efforts for change.</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p><b>I think this is also a misunderstanding - I don=E2=80=99t thin= k that the concept of privilege invokes self-loathing. Nobody is asking you to apologize and hate yourself for whatever privileges you may have. Further, nobody is saying that you have not worked hard for your accomplishments. My understanding of acknowledging privilege is that it is about humility rather than self-loathing. For example, understanding that my path in life and in my career may have looked different and involved more obstacles if I were a person of color, queer, disabled, etc. You can still be proud of your accomplishments and your hard work while acknowledging this. I also don=E2=80= =99t think acknowledging privilege is the end goal in these discussions or an exercise unto itself, but a necessary step in the process of beginning to tackle the social injustices that you mention above. If we cannot first admit that these factors play a role in our trajectories, then it is hard to get any further in enacting change - we are blind to what we are trying to tackle.</b></p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any hierarchy, there are biases that come into play.=C2=A0 That's because they are all hu= man endeavors.=C2=A0 Matters of degree count!=C2=A0 In = our field of auditory science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have asserted that discriminatory factors <b><i>must </i></b>be at play to a <b><i>substantial degree</i></b>. I think that is patently false and my observations across decades support that belief.</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p><b>You cannot say that because you have not experienced or witnessed discrimination in this field that it does not exist. All you can say is that you have not experienced or witnessed it. Other people on this thread are telling you that their experiences have been different (and citing literature that points to the existence of bias and discrimination at large). Again, it is important to listen to and acknowledge the experiences of other people if we want to address social injustice. People from different demographic backgrounds can have radically different experiences of the same community. You can simultaneously take pride in your field and your community and want to make it better.</b></p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>Some of you have acted as "scientists" drawing conclusions= on the basis of essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personally, must have a myopic view because you assume that I'm just another fairly successful old white guy.=C2=A0 Shame on you= .=C2=A0 You know nothing of my history and that of my family.=C2=A0 You commit the genetic fallacy, that = of evaluating an idea on the basis of <b><i>who </i></= b>generated the idea, rather than on the merits of the idea, <i>per se</i>.=C2=A0 In so doing, you commit the ve= ry sin that you decry so vociferously in self-righteous fashion!</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p><b>It seems that most people are replying directly to what you said, point-by-point, not assuming that you must be myopic because you are, as you describe, a =E2=80=9Cfairly successful old white = guy=E2=80=9D. </b><b><span>=F0=9F=98=8A</span> </b></p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>I suggest that you read <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__htt= ps://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/696856/woke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/= __;!!Cn_UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiHVy_INKv0r3PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-Nj= lpyLdKM4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSxx7WGig$" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferre= r noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"> <span>this excellent work</span></a> by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter.</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific results.=C2=A0 I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to that topic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List.</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p><b>I don=E2=80=99t think that these topics are inappropriate and are actually very important and beneficial to discuss.</b></p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>Les</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p> <div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;bo= rder-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"= ><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style= =3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <<a href= =3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferre= r noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> on behalf of Les Bernstein <<a href=3D"mailt= o:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" = target=3D"_blank">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>><br> <b>Date: </b>Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:10 AM<br> <b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blan= k">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx"= rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">AUDI= TORY@xxxxxxxx</a>><br> <b>Subject: </b>[External] Re: arXiv web of trust</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:H= elvetica">I think it's important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the "reference level."=C2= =A0 The societal inequities that exist are not because I and other "white guys" (i.e= ., the "Richards" in the cartoon) were given= some <b><i>undeserved</i></b><i> </i>privilege but, rather, because some minorities and cultures (i.e., the Paula's in the cartoon) have been unfairly denied <b><i= >their </i></b>due.=C2=A0 I think it very much matte= rs where one perceives the unfairness to be.<br> <br> I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to be misguided folly=C2= =A0 I will not apologize for what I have accomplished and for what I have.=C2=A0 It was not handed to me.=C2=A0 For those who still don't underst= and, I'll say it again.=C2=A0 The social injusti= ce lies in the fact that the less fortunate (often minority cultures and ethnicities) have been denied the opportunity and dignity they deserve as human beings.=C2=A0 That is whe= re we must focus our efforts for change.<br> <br> It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any hierarchy, there are biases that come into play.=C2=A0 That's because they are all human endeavors.=C2=A0 Matters of degree count!=C2=A0= In our field of auditory science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have asserted that discriminatory factors <b><i= >must </i></b>be at play to a <b><i>substantial degree</i></b>. I think that is patently false and my observations across decades support that belief.<br> <br> Some of you have acted as "scientists"= ; drawing conclusions on the basis of essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personally, must have a myopic view because you assume that I'm jus= t another fairly successful old white guy.=C2=A0 Shame on you.=C2=A0 You know nothing of my history and that of my family.=C2=A0 You commit the genetic fallacy, that of evaluating an idea on the basis of <b><i>who </i></b>generate= d the idea, rather than on the merits of the idea, <i>per se</i>.=C2=A0 In so doing, you commit the very sin that you decry so vociferously in self-righteous fashion!<br> <br> I suggest that you read </span><a href=3D"https= ://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/696856/woke= -racism-by-john-mcwhorter/__;!!Cn_UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiHVy_INKv0r3= PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-NjlpyLdKM4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSxx7WGig$" r= el=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"><span = style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">this excellent work</span></a><span style=3D"font-= family:Helvetica"> by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter.<br> <br> This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific results.=C2=A0 I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to that topic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List.<br> <br> Les<br> </span><br> On 6/4/2023 9:24 PM, Svirsky, Mario wrote:</p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt= "> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center= ;background:rgb(213,234,255)" align=3D"center"> <span style=3D"font-size:12= pt;color:red">*** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. ***</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have a small contribution to the very interesting conversation between Matt Winn and Les Bernstein.</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I recommend those of you who are also interested in this conversation watch =E2=80=9CPicture a Scientist=E2=80=9D, wh= ich is on Netflix in the U.S. until June 12. It is a fascinating description of some of the obstacles faced by women in general and black women in particular, in academia.</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree with Les that, ideally, status as a researcher should be earned by a person=E2=80=99s contributions to t= heir field. The problem is that in the real world women get fewer resources and less recognition than men given the same intellect and productivity. Ditto for minorities. =E2=80=9CPicture a Scientist=E2=80= =9D doesn=E2=80=99t even get into the issues of class, nationality, or able bodiedness, which are also important.</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Or instead of watching Picture a Scientist (which, after all, will take you 103 minutes), you could invest just two minutes in reading the cartoon below. About the concept of having things handed to you on a plate (or =E2=80=9Cbeing born on third= base and thinking you hit a triple=E2=80=9D, a quote attributed to Barry Switzer, 1986).</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><img id=3D"m_-413579= 5511691375562m_-8064564293141944595m_7215464527543903297m_-8185742895131692= 532m_19025847513475709m_115388476549226764_x0000_i1030" style=3D"width: 7.3= 125in; height: 10.177in;" width=3D"702" height=3D"977" border=3D"0"></span>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><img id=3D"m_-413579= 5511691375562m_-8064564293141944595m_7215464527543903297m_-8185742895131692= 532m_19025847513475709m_115388476549226764Picture_x0020_4" style=3D"width: = 7.3125in; height: 10.2395in;" width=3D"702" height=3D"983" border=3D"0"><im= g id=3D"m_-4135795511691375562m_-8064564293141944595m_7215464527543903297m_= -8185742895131692532m_19025847513475709m_115388476549226764Picture_x0020_5"= style=3D"width: 7.3125in; height: 10.2291in;" width=3D"702" height=3D"982"= border=3D"0"></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><img id=3D"m_-413579= 5511691375562m_-8064564293141944595m_7215464527543903297m_-8185742895131692= 532m_19025847513475709m_115388476549226764Picture_x0020_3" style=3D"width: = 7.3125in; height: 10.5625in;" width=3D"702" height=3D"1014" border=3D"0"></= span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1= 2pt;font-family:Papyrus,sans-serif;color:black;background:white" lang=3D"IT= ">Mario A. Svirsky, Ph.D.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Papyrus,sans-serif;color:black">= Noel L. Cohen Professor of Hearing Science,</span>= </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Papyrus,sans-serif;color:black">= Professor of Otolaryngology (School of Medicine) and Neural Science</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Papyrus,sans-serif;color:black">= Vice-Chairman for Research</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Papyrus,sans-serif;color:black">= Department of Otolaryngology</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"col= or:black"><img id=3D"m_-4135795511691375562m_-8064564293141944595m_72154645= 27543903297m_-8185742895131692532m_19025847513475709m_115388476549226764Pic= ture_x0020_2" style=3D"width: 3.9375in; height: 1.2187in;" width=3D"378" he= ight=3D"117" border=3D"0"></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"= >Address:</span></b></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">De= pt. of Otolaryngology=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<b>Phone=C2=A0</b>(direct)<b>:</b>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 212-263-7217</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">NY= U=C2=A0Langone Medical Center=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<b>Fax:</b>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 212-263-7604 or 212-263-8257</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">55= 0 First Ave., NBV-5E5=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Ne= w York, NY 10016</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black">= =C2=A0</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Pr= onouns: he, him, his</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">=C2=A0</span></b></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:black">CONFIDENTIAL - NYU SCHOOL OF MEDICINE SENSITIVE DOCUMENT</span></b></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black= ">=C2=A0</span></b></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black">= =E2=80=9CThis email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.=E2=80=9D</sp= an></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p> </div> </blockquote> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><= span>=C2=A0</span></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>-- </span></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-s= ize:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. </span></b><b><span s= tyle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">| </span> </b><span st= yle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Professor Emeritus</spa= n><span></span></p> <div> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f= ont-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of Medicine </span><span><br> </span><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;= font-family:Arial,sans-serif">263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401</span><span><br> </span><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;= font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495<br= > <br> <img id=3D"m_-4135795511691375562m_= -8064564293141944595m_7215464527543903297m_-8185742895131692532m_1902584751= 3475709m_115388476549226764Picture_x0020_1" style=3D"width: 1.302in; height= : 0.5in;" width=3D"125" height=3D"48" border=3D"0"></span><span></span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </blockquote> <br> <br> <div>-- <br> =20 =20 <div> <div><b><span>Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. </span></b><b><span>| </sp= an></b><span>Professor Emeritus</span><span><u></u><u></u></span><span></sp= an><br> <div> <div> <div><span></span> <div><span> Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of Medicine </span><br> <span></span><span>263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401</span><br> <span></span><span>Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495<br> <br> <img alt=3D"" width=3D"125" height=3D"48"><br> </span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div></div> </blockquote></div> --0000000000002db11805fdc87a2f--