Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] [External] Re: arXiv web of trust From: Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 16:08:45 -0400--000000000000371f1305fde02c96 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000371f1205fde02c95" --000000000000371f1205fde02c95 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all There is no valid inference from someone's gender, race or cultural backgro= und to whether they have been treated fairly. We can talk probalities, sure. But as a younger academic not from America w= ho hasn't "made it" I know if a lot example of people of all sorts who been unfairly advantaged and disadvantaged, sometimes simultaneously in different contexts. The mere existence of inequality is not evidence of unfairness either. Unless everyone had exactly the same preferences and backgrounds, systems naturally evolve to produce inequality. In fact, equality is the worst possible solution to practically any social scenario. It is "splitting the baby" that necessarily leaves everyone worse off. That doesn't mean unfairness is good, but prejudice is no better, even if it nominally enacted to reverse past unfairness. I simply do not accept that prejudice now does anything to redress past prejudice. It only adds to the sum of human misery. I would like to think we can transcend it. Douglas Scott On Sun, Jun 11, 2023, 04:34 Baskent, D (kno), < 00000187abab8d23-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Dear Les, > > > > This is too easy a way out. > > > > You want evidence, here it is (again). The link I had posted earlier on > "Gender differences in peer reviewed grant applications, awards, and > amounts: a systematic review and meta-analysis" (from 2023): > > > https://researchintegrityjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s4107= 3-023-00127-3 > > <https://researchintegrityjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s410= 73-023-00127-3> > > Another paper, only from last year, "Inequality in science and the case > for a new agenda: > https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2117831119 > > Please also see the links Helia had posted earlier, both based on > peer-reviewed papers. > > In grant applications, there is a fixed number of grantees, say top 5. > Somebody who may have equal qualitites as you but have just a few > disadvantage points will easily be left out of this 5. Not your fault, bu= t > not their fault either, and yet they will have to suffer from these > consequences. If we are unaware of such issues, how will we ever correct > this? > > > > On the other hand, I also would like to thank you for bringing up your > thoughts, this was very eye-opening and has been very educational for all > of us. > > > > Best, > > Deniz > > -------------------------- > Prof. dr. ir. D. Ba=C5=9Fkent > Speech Perception Lab (dB SPL) > Department of Otorhinolaryngology > School of Behavioral and Cognitive Neuroscience (BCN) > W.J. Kolff Institute for Biomedical Engineering and Materials Science > University Medical Center Groningen (UMCG) > University of Groningen (RUG) > Tel: +31 (0) 50 3612540 (KNO Office) > Mobile: =E2=80=AD+31 6 25651377=E2=80=AC > Visiting address: UMCG, Hanzeplein 1, Room P4.220 > Website (also for dB SPL): dbaskent.org > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> namens Les Bernstein <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx> > *Verzonden:* zaterdag 10 juni 2023 23:27 > *Aan:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust > > You are changing the conditions. You are misrepresenting what I said. > You do not understand what I said. You are assuming facts not in > evidence. Typical of an "internet argument." No point to this. > > Les > > > On 6/10/2023 4:46 PM, Lesicko, Alexandria wrote: > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening > attachments or clicking on links. *** > > Using a reference as a standard in this case only makes sense if you > assume adequate resources. If we do not have enough money to pay both Fre= d > and John at market value, what do we do? There is a limited amount of > scientific funding, a limited number of faculty jobs, etc. Historically, > people from certain demographic backgrounds have largely been the > recipients of this funding and have populated these positions. If people > who look like Fred are repeatedly chosen to get grants and to fill facult= y > slots, while people who look like John are not, can we just throw our han= ds > in the air and say =E2=80=9Cwell, Fred is being treated fairly=E2=80=9D? = No, Fred is > benefitting from the privileges of his demographic background while John = is > not. So yes, I do understand the difference between two values and the ca= se > when one is a reference (I have, after all, been a trainee in this field > for over 10 years!), but I question the validity of using a reference her= e > at all. > > > > I didn=E2=80=99t make your point, you negated it. You stated that you and= =E2=80=9Cother > white guys=E2=80=9D were not given some undeserved privilege and that not= hing was > handed to you, implying that you deserve the privilege you have and that > therefore privilege can somehow be earned. Now you suggest you have no > privilege at all. I have maintained throughout this conversation that > privilege can reflect factors outside of our control, such as our race an= d > gender, and is undeserved. Suggesting you have no privilege implies that > people are, in fact, not treated differently based on these demographic > factors. If your life would have looked any different by altering any one > of these factors, for example if you were born a black man or a white > woman, then you have privilege. > > > > You have decided that injustice does not exist in our field basely solely > and entirely on your own lived experience. Why is your experience the nul= l > hypothesis? How is that scientific? Others have supported their arguments > with references and citations, you have not contributed anything other th= an > your own perspective, which is the perspective of, in your words, =E2=80= =9Ca fairly > successful old white guy.=E2=80=9D > > > > Allyship is not about =E2=80=9Ctaking sides=E2=80=9D, it is about listeni= ng to, > supporting, and advocating for people from different backgrounds than you= r > own. There=E2=80=99s been a great show of that on this thread and that is= a > positive product of this conversation. I don=E2=80=99t think acknowledgin= g that is > stoking polarization. > > > > > > *From: *Les Bernstein <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx> <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx> > *Date: *Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 2:51 PM > *To: *Lesicko, Alexandria <Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx> > <Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx>, AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Subject: *Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust > > It is most unfortunate that you do not understand the distinctions betwee= n > a simple difference between two values and the case when one is a > reference. If Fred earns market value for his work and John does not, it > is not the case that Fred is privileged. Fred and others should work to > ensure that John is paid market value as well. If you still fail or refu= se > to grasp the difference, then I cannot help you. > > Indeed, the use of "privileged" implies it is undeserved. Thank you for > making my point! I do not have privilege. Rather, I believe I have been > treated fairly. The sad truth is that others have not been treated fairl= y > and are not being treated fairly. I never suggested that such societal > inequities and injustices are irrelevant simply because some do not face > them. That's your invention. I did say, that, in our field, I do not > think such injustices are substantive. It is not for me to acceded to yo= ur > insistence that I prove the null hypothesis. It is, rather, incumbent up= on > you to demonstrate that, in our field, such injustice exists in substanti= ve > fashion. > > This is not about allies or "sides." Your thinking reflects the > corruption wrought by polarization. I do not deny the societal ills > identified. I simply have a different view of how they arose and persist= . > That they should be addressed is undeniable, as I see it. Still, this is > the Auditory List. I limited my comments regarding the existence of > injustices (or lack thereof), to our field. > > On 6/10/2023 12:50 PM, Lesicko, Alexandria wrote: > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening > attachments or clicking on links. *** > > There is no difference. By analogy: =E2=80=9Cit is ok to say that 3 is 5 = less than > 8 but we mustn=E2=80=99t suggest that 8 is 5 more than 3.=E2=80=9D No mat= ter what phrasing > of it makes you feel comfortable, you are referring to the same gap of 5, > the same inequity in access to resources, support, etc. There is no such > thing as *deserved* privilege. It would be very weird to say, =E2=80=9CI = deserved > to be born white=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI deserved to be born a man.=E2=80= =9D Privilege can stem from > circumstances outside of our control. Regardless, those of us who were bo= rn > with it still benefit from it. That does not mean, for example, that I mu= st > hate myself to atone for it, nor does it mean that everything I have > accomplished in my life is a direct cause of my whiteness and must be > reduced to this factor. But it does mean that I very likely had an easier > time in my life and my career than I would have had I been born otherwise= . > I think recognizing that is the first step in having more supportive and > less harmful interactions with the people around me who come from differe= nt > backgrounds with different lived experiences. > > > > To those suggesting that these issues are irrelevant to them because they > have succeeded in the face of obstacles, you are again missing the point. > Your personal experience is not universal, and one example of success doe= s > not negate the fact that others suffer the consequences of bias and > discrimination. If you work in science, you are part of an international > community made up of people from diverse backgrounds, meaning these issue= s > are relevant to you and the manner in which you engage with other > scientists. Further, by saying that these issues are non-existent, trivia= l, > or irrelevant, you are sending a message to anyone in your field who may > experience bias or discrimination that they cannot come to you for suppor= t > and allyship, because you have already minimized or devalued their > experiences. Thank you to Matt, Mario, David, Ken, and everyone else on > this thread who have demonstrated allyship - one benefit of having these > conversations out in the open is that members of the community know who > they can turn to in the face of such issues. > > > > > > *From: *AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception > <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Vani > Rajendran <vani.g.rajendran@xxxxxxxx> <vani.g.rajendran@xxxxxxxx> > *Date: *Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:37 AM > *To: *AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Subject: *Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust > > I'm sorry if I'm being thick but what exactly is the difference? > > > > If the cards are being stacked against rather than in favor... ok... but > who benefits from the stacking? Who decides the stacking? > > > > Vani > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 9, 2023, 22:11 Les Bernstein <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > I agree with Ken's views, save for this statement: > > > > *The cards are stacked in favor of those with privilege... *No, the cards > are stacked *against *those unfairly denied opportunity and dignity. The > difference is both non-trivial and crucial. > > Les > > On 6/9/2023 4:12 PM, Ken Grant wrote: > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening > attachments or clicking on links. *** > > Thank you Alexandria for expressing what it means to have systemic > obstacles and barriers to success throughout our society. Folks got upset > when the Black Lives Matter movement took off because they were wondering > "don't White Lives Matter as well". Anyone who felt this way misunderstoo= d > the entire enterprise. Nobody ever claimed that white lives don't matter, > or matter more, or matter less. A good friend suggested that, if the Blac= k > Lives Matter movement had printed signs that read "Black Lives Matter Too= ". > While I understood his point and that I can see how this might have helpe= d > white male americans feel better, this too misses the point. Centuries of > inequities do not get wiped away in an instant. Declaring racism over is = a > monstrous error. Some scientists rise to the top of their fields by worki= ng > very very hard. But as the cartoon displayed, not all children, > adolescents, or teens have the same opportunities. The cards are stacked = in > favor of those with privilege, and your comment that recognizing this fac= t > might make us more willing and able to consider these systemic obstacles. > > > > On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:15=E2=80=AFAM Bernstein,Leslie <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx= .edu> > wrote: > > I disagree. I think I understand the points and the reality quite well. > > > > Les > ------------------------------ > > *From:* "Lesicko, Alexandria" <Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx> > *Date:* Thu, Jun 8, 2023, 5:06 PM > *To:* "Bernstein,Leslie" <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx>, AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > *Subject:* Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening > attachments or clicking on links. *** > > I think it's important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the > "reference level." The societal inequities that exist are not because I > and other "white guys" (i.e., the "Richards" in the cartoon) were given > some *undeserved* privilege but, rather, because some minorities and > cultures (i.e., the Paula's in the cartoon) have been unfairly denied *th= eir > *due. I think it very much matters where one perceives the unfairness to > be. > > > > *I think you are missing the main point of the cartoons that have been > shared here. They are meant to illustrate the point that our gender, > racial, etc. identities and economic realities shape our experiences and > opportunities in science and in the world. This benefits some people and > works against others. The =E2=80=9Cperceived unfairness=E2=80=9D isn=E2= =80=99t on one side of the > coin or the other, it is all a product of the same system.* > > > > I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to be misguided folly I > will not apologize for what I have accomplished and for what I have. It > was not handed to me. For those who still don't understand, I'll say it > again. The social injustice lies in the fact that the less fortunate > (often minority cultures and ethnicities) have been denied the opportunit= y > and dignity they deserve as human beings. That is where we must focus ou= r > efforts for change. > > > > *I think this is also a misunderstanding - I don=E2=80=99t think that the= concept > of privilege invokes self-loathing. Nobody is asking you to apologize and > hate yourself for whatever privileges you may have. Further, nobody is > saying that you have not worked hard for your accomplishments. My > understanding of acknowledging privilege is that it is about humility > rather than self-loathing. For example, understanding that my path in lif= e > and in my career may have looked different and involved more obstacles if= I > were a person of color, queer, disabled, etc. You can still be proud of > your accomplishments and your hard work while acknowledging this. I also > don=E2=80=99t think acknowledging privilege is the end goal in these disc= ussions or > an exercise unto itself, but a necessary step in the process of beginning > to tackle the social injustices that you mention above. If we cannot firs= t > admit that these factors play a role in our trajectories, then it is hard > to get any further in enacting change - we are blind to what we are tryin= g > to tackle.* > > > > It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any > hierarchy, there are biases that come into play. That's because they are > all human endeavors. Matters of degree count! In our field of auditory > science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have > asserted that discriminatory factors *must *be at play to a *substantial > degree*. I think that is patently false and my observations across > decades support that belief. > > > > *You cannot say that because you have not experienced or witnessed > discrimination in this field that it does not exist. All you can say is > that you have not experienced or witnessed it. Other people on this threa= d > are telling you that their experiences have been different (and citing > literature that points to the existence of bias and discrimination at > large). Again, it is important to listen to and acknowledge the experienc= es > of other people if we want to address social injustice. People from > different demographic backgrounds can have radically different experience= s > of the same community. You can simultaneously take pride in your field an= d > your community and want to make it better.* > > > > Some of you have acted as "scientists" drawing conclusions on the basis o= f > essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personally, must ha= ve > a myopic view because you assume that I'm just another fairly successful > old white guy. Shame on you. You know nothing of my history and that of > my family. You commit the genetic fallacy, that of evaluating an idea on > the basis of *who *generated the idea, rather than on the merits of the > idea, *per se*. In so doing, you commit the very sin that you decry so > vociferously in self-righteous fashion! > > > > *It seems that most people are replying directly to what you said, > point-by-point, not assuming that you must be myopic because you are, as > you describe, a =E2=80=9Cfairly successful old white guy=E2=80=9D. **=F0= =9F=98=8A * > > > > I suggest that you read this excellent work > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/6968= 56/woke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/__;!!Cn_UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiHVy_= INKv0r3PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-NjlpyLdKM4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSxx7W= Gig$> > by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter. > > > > This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific > results. I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to that > topic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List. > > > > *I don=E2=80=99t think that these topics are inappropriate and are actual= ly very > important and beneficial to discuss.* > > > > Les > > > > > > *From: *AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Les Bernstein <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx= > > *Date: *Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:10 AM > *To: *AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Subject: *[External] Re: arXiv web of trust > > I think it's important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the > "reference level." The societal inequities that exist are not because I > and other "white guys" (i.e., the "Richards" in the cartoon) were given > some *undeserved* privilege but, rather, because some minorities and > cultures (i.e., the Paula's in the cartoon) have been unfairly denied *th= eir > *due. I think it very much matters where one perceives the unfairness to > be. > > I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to be misguided folly I > will not apologize for what I have accomplished and for what I have. It > was not handed to me. For those who still don't understand, I'll say it > again. The social injustice lies in the fact that the less fortunate > (often minority cultures and ethnicities) have been denied the opportunit= y > and dignity they deserve as human beings. That is where we must focus ou= r > efforts for change. > > It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any > hierarchy, there are biases that come into play. That's because they are > all human endeavors. Matters of degree count! In our field of auditory > science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have > asserted that discriminatory factors *must *be at play to a *substantial > degree*. I think that is patently false and my observations across > decades support that belief. > > Some of you have acted as "scientists" drawing conclusions on the basis o= f > essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personally, must ha= ve > a myopic view because you assume that I'm just another fairly successful > old white guy. Shame on you. You know nothing of my history and that of > my family. You commit the genetic fallacy, that of evaluating an idea on > the basis of *who *generated the idea, rather than on the merits of the > idea, *per se*. In so doing, you commit the very sin that you decry so > vociferously in self-righteous fashion! > > I suggest that you read this excellent work > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/6968= 56/woke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/__;!!Cn_UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiHVy_= INKv0r3PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-NjlpyLdKM4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSxx7W= Gig$> > by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter. > > This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific > results. I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to that > topic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List. > > Les > > On 6/4/2023 9:24 PM, Svirsky, Mario wrote: > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening > attachments or clicking on links. *** > > I have a small contribution to the very interesting conversation between > Matt Winn and Les Bernstein. > > > > I recommend those of you who are also interested in this conversation > watch =E2=80=9CPicture a Scientist=E2=80=9D, which is on Netflix in the U= .S. until June 12. > It is a fascinating description of some of the obstacles faced by women i= n > general and black women in particular, in academia. > > > > I agree with Les that, ideally, status as a researcher should be earned b= y > a person=E2=80=99s contributions to their field. The problem is that in t= he real > world women get fewer resources and less recognition than men given the > same intellect and productivity. Ditto for minorities. =E2=80=9CPicture a > Scientist=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t even get into the issues of class, nat= ionality, or able > bodiedness, which are also important. > > > > Or instead of watching Picture a Scientist (which, after all, will take > you 103 minutes), you could invest just two minutes in reading the cartoo= n > below. About the concept of having things handed to you on a plate (or > =E2=80=9Cbeing born on third base and thinking you hit a triple=E2=80=9D,= a quote > attributed to Barry Switzer, 1986). > > > > > > > > Mario A. Svirsky, Ph.D. > > Noel L. Cohen Professor of Hearing Science, > > Professor of Otolaryngology (School of Medicine) and Neural Science > > Vice-Chairman for Research > > Department of Otolaryngology > > > > > > *Address:* > > Dept. of Otolaryngology *Phone *(direct)*:* > 212-263-7217 > > NYU Langone Medical Center *Fax:* > 212-263-7604 or 212-263-8257 > > 550 First Ave., > NBV-5E5 > > New York, NY 10016 > > > > Pronouns: he, him, his > > > > *CONFIDENTIAL - NYU SCHOOL OF MEDICINE SENSITIVE DOCUMENT* > > > > =E2=80=9CThis email message, including any attachments, is for the sole u= se of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, > confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any > unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If y= ou > have received this email in error please notify the sender by return emai= l > and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check > this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The > organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus > transmitted by this email.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > -- > > *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. | *Professor Emeritus > > Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of > Medicine > 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 > Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 > > > > -- > > *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. | *Professor Emeritus > > Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of > Medicine > 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 > Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 > > > > -- > > *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. **| *Professor Emeritus > > Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of > Medicine > 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 > Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 > > > > -- > *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. **| *Professor Emeritus > Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of > Medicine > 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 > Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 > > > ------------------------------ > De inhoud van dit bericht is vertrouwelijk en alleen bestemd voor de > geadresseerde(n). Anderen dan de geadresseerde(n) mogen geen gebruik make= n > van dit bericht, het niet openbaar maken of op enige wijze verspreiden of > vermenigvuldigen. Het UMCG kan niet aansprakelijk gesteld worden voor een > incomplete aankomst of vertraging van dit verzonden bericht. > > The contents of this message are confidential and only intended for the > eyes of the addressee(s). Others than the addressee(s) are not allowed to > use this message, to make it public or to distribute or multiply this > message in any way. The UMCG cannot be held responsible for incomplete > reception or delay of this transferred message. > --000000000000371f1205fde02c95 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">Dear all<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br= ></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">There is no valid= inference from someone's gender, race or cultural=C2=A0</span><span st= yle=3D"font-size:12.8px">background to whether they have been treated fairl= y.</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><span style= =3D"font-size:12.8px">We can talk probalities, sure. But as a younger acade= mic not from America=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">who hasn&= #39;t "made it" I know if a lot example of people of all sorts wh= o been=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">unfairly advantaged and= disadvantaged, sometimes simultaneously in different contexts.</span><br><= /div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><d= iv dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">The mere existence of ineq= uality is not evidence of unfairness either. Unless everyone had exactly th= e same preferences and backgrounds, systems naturally evolve to produce ine= quality. In fact, equality is the worst possible solution to practically an= y social scenario. It is "splitting the baby" that necessarily le= aves everyone worse off.</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-= size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-size:12= .8px">That doesn't mean unfairness is good, but prejudice is no better,= even if it nominally enacted to reverse past unfairness. I simply do not a= ccept that prejudice now does anything to redress past prejudice. It only a= dds to the sum of human misery.</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style= =3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"fon= t-size:12.8px">I would like to think we can transcend it.</span></div><div = dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"= auto"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Douglas Scott</span></div></div><br>= <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Ju= n 11, 2023, 04:34 Baskent, D (kno), <<a href=3D"mailto:00000187abab8d23-= dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx">00000187abab8d23-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx= ca</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi= n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400"></span><br> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt">Dear Les,</span><u></u><span style=3D"font-s= ize:10pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt">This is too easy a way out.</span><u></u><sp= an style=3D"font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt">You want evidence, here it is (again). The l= ink I had posted earlier on "Gender differences in peer reviewed grant= applications, awards, and amounts: a systematic review and meta-analysis&q= uot; (from 2023):</span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span>= <u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <a href=3D"https://researchintegrityjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1= 186/s41073-023-00127-3" title=3D"https://researchintegrityjournal.biomedcen= tral.com/articles/10.1186/s41073-023-00127-3 " id=3D"m_-8970087675165491979= LPNoLPOWALinkPreview" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"><span style=3D"f= ont-size:10pt">https://researchintegrityjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/= 10.1186/s41073-023-00127-3</span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=C2= =A0</span><u></u></a></p> <div></div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt"><br> </span></div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt">Another paper, only from last year, "In= equality in science and the case for a new agenda:</span></div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt"><a href=3D"https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.= 1073/pnas.2117831119" id=3D"m_-8970087675165491979LPlnk878845" target=3D"_b= lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2117831= 119</a><br> </span></div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt">Please also see the links Helia had posted e= arlier, both based on peer-reviewed papers.=C2=A0</span><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> <br> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt">In grant applications, there is a fixed numb= er of grantees, say top 5. Somebody who may have equal qualitites as you bu= t have just a few disadvantage points will easily be left out of this 5. No= t your fault, but not their fault either, and yet they will have to suffer from these consequences. If we ar= e unaware of such issues, how will we ever correct this?</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt">On the other hand, I also would like to than= k you for bringing up your thoughts, this was very eye-opening and has been= very educational for all of us.</span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10pt= ">=C2=A0</span><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt">Best,</span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:= 10pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calib= ri,sans-serif"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt">Deniz</span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:= 10pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u></p> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </div> <div> <div></div> <div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:10pt;font-weight:400"></span> <div><br> </div> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400"></span> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:10pt;font-weight:400">--------------------------</span><br> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400">Prof. dr. ir.=C2=A0D. Ba=C5=9Fkent</span></div> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400"></span> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:10pt;font-weight:400">Speech Perception Lab (dB SPL)</span><br> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400"></span> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:10pt;font-weight:400">Department of Otorhinolaryngology</span><br> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400">School of Behavioral and Cognitive Neuroscience (BCN)</s= pan></div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:10pt;font-weight:400"></span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Hel= vetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;font-weight:400">W.J. Kolff Institute for = Biomedical Engineering and Materials Science</span></div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:10pt;font-weight:400"></span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Hel= vetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;font-weight:400">University Medical Center= Groningen (UMCG)</span><br> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400">University of Groningen (RUG)</span></div> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400">Tel: +31 (0) 50 3612540 (KNO Office)</span></div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:10pt;font-weight:400">Mobile:=C2=A0=E2=80=AD+31 6 25651377=E2=80=AC</span= ></div> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400"></span> <div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:10pt;font-weight:400">Visiting address: UMCG, Hanzeplein 1, Room P4.220</= span><br> </div> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400"></span> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:10pt;font-weight:400">Website (also for dB SPL): </span><a href=3D"http://dbaskent.org/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer= "><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:1= 0pt;font-weight:400">dbaskent.org</span></a> </div> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400"></span></div> </div> </div> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p= t;font-weight:400"></span></div> <div><br> </div> <u></u> <div style=3D"font:initial;font-synthesis:initial;text-orientation:initial;= writing-mode:initial;zoom:initial;background:initial;background-blend-mode:= initial;border:initial;border-radius:initial;border-collapse:initial;box-si= zing:initial;break-after:initial;break-before:initial;break-inside:initial;= caption-side:initial;clear:initial;columns:initial;column-fill:initial;colu= mn-rule:initial;column-span:initial;empty-cells:initial;float:initial;image= -orientation:initial;isolation:initial;letter-spacing:initial;line-break:in= itial;list-style:initial;margin:initial;max-height:initial;max-width:initia= l;min-height:initial;min-width:initial;mix-blend-mode:initial;object-fit:in= itial;object-position:initial;opacity:initial;outline:initial;overflow:init= ial;padding:initial;quotes:initial;speak:initial;table-layout:initial;text-= align:initial;text-align-last:initial;text-combine-upright:initial;text-dec= oration:initial;text-emphasis:initial;text-indent:initial;text-overflow:ini= tial;text-transform:initial;text-underline-position:initial;white-space:ini= tial;vertical-align:initial;border-spacing:initial;word-break:initial;word-= spacing:initial;display:block!important;height:0px!important;width:0px!impo= rtant;color:initial"> </div> <u></u><u></u> <div style=3D"font:initial;font-synthesis:initial;text-orientation:initial;= writing-mode:initial;zoom:initial;background:initial;background-blend-mode:= initial;border:initial;border-radius:initial;border-collapse:initial;box-si= zing:initial;break-after:initial;break-before:initial;break-inside:initial;= caption-side:initial;clear:initial;columns:initial;column-fill:initial;colu= mn-rule:initial;column-span:initial;empty-cells:initial;float:initial;image= -orientation:initial;isolation:initial;letter-spacing:initial;line-break:in= itial;list-style:initial;margin:initial;max-height:initial;max-width:initia= l;min-height:initial;min-width:initial;mix-blend-mode:initial;object-fit:in= itial;object-position:initial;opacity:initial;outline:initial;overflow:init= ial;padding:initial;quotes:initial;speak:initial;table-layout:initial;text-= align:initial;text-align-last:initial;text-combine-upright:initial;text-dec= oration:initial;text-emphasis:initial;text-indent:initial;text-overflow:ini= tial;text-transform:initial;text-underline-position:initial;white-space:ini= tial;vertical-align:initial;border-spacing:initial;word-break:initial;word-= spacing:initial;display:block!important;height:0px!important;width:0px!impo= rtant;color:initial"> </div> <u></u> <div id=3D"m_-8970087675165491979appendonsend"></div> <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%"> <div id=3D"m_-8970087675165491979divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"C= alibri, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>Van:</b> = AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ISTS.MCGILL.CA" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= CA</a>> namens Les Bernstein <<a href=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>><br> <b>Verzonden:</b> zaterdag 10 juni 2023 23:27<br> <b>Aan:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" r= el=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITO= RY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA</a>><br> <b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust</font> <div>=C2=A0</div> </div> <div> <div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">You are changing the conditions.=C2=A0 You are misrepre= senting what I said.=C2=A0 You do not understand what I said.=C2=A0 You are= assuming facts not in evidence.=C2=A0 Typical of an "internet argument."=C2=A0 No point to this.<br> <br> Les<br> </font><br> <br> On 6/10/2023 4:46 PM, Lesicko, Alexandria wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div style=3D"background-color:#d5eaff;padding:.8em"> <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#ff0000;text-align:center;font-family:&#= 39;Calibri',sans-serif"> *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening a= ttachments or clicking on links. ***</div> </div> <div> <div> <p><span>Using a reference as a standard in this case only makes sense if y= ou assume adequate resources. If we do not have enough money to pay both Fr= ed and John at market value, what do we do? There is a limited amount of sc= ientific funding, a limited number of faculty jobs, etc. Historically, people from = certain demographic backgrounds have largely been the recipients of this fu= nding and have populated these positions. If people who look like Fred are = repeatedly chosen to get grants and to fill faculty slots, while people who look like John are not, can we= just throw our hands in the air and say =E2=80=9Cwell, Fred is being treat= ed fairly=E2=80=9D? No, Fred is benefitting from the privileges of his demo= graphic background while John is not. So yes, I do understand the difference between two values and the case when one is a= reference (I have, after all, been a trainee in this field for over 10 yea= rs!), but I question the validity of using a reference here at all. =C2=A0<= /span></p> <p><span>=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span>I didn=E2=80=99t make your point, you negated it. You stated that = you and =E2=80=9Cother white guys=E2=80=9D were not given some undeserved p= rivilege and that nothing was handed to you, implying that you deserve the = privilege you have and that therefore privilege can somehow be earned. Now you suggest you have no pri= vilege at all. I have maintained throughout this conversation that privileg= e can reflect factors outside of our control, such as our race and gender, = and is undeserved. Suggesting you have no privilege implies that people are, in fact, not treated differentl= y based on these demographic factors. If your life would have looked any di= fferent by altering any one of these factors, for example if you were born = a black man or a white woman, then you have privilege.</span></p> <p><span>=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span>You have decided that injustice does not exist in our field basely= solely and entirely on your own lived experience. Why is your experience t= he null hypothesis? How is that scientific? Others have supported their arg= uments with references and citations, you have not contributed anything other tha= n your own perspective, which is the perspective of, in your words, =E2=80= =9Ca fairly successful old white guy.=E2=80=9D</span></p> <p><span>=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span>Allyship is not about =E2=80=9Ctaking sides=E2=80=9D, it is about = listening to, supporting, and advocating for people from different backgrou= nds than your own. There=E2=80=99s been a great show of that on this thread= and that is a positive product of this conversation. I don=E2=80=99t think acknowledging that is stoking = polarization.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in"> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:= black">From: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Les Bernstein <a hr= ef=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"> <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx></a><br> <b>Date: </b>Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 2:51 PM<br> <b>To: </b>Lesicko, Alexandria <a href=3D"mailto:Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= icine.upenn.edu" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"> <Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx></a>, <a href=3D"mailto:AU= DITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" ta= rget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"> <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx></a><br> <b>Subject: </b>Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust</span></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">It is most unfortunate that you do= not understand the distinctions between a simple difference between two va= lues and the case when one is a reference.=C2=A0 If Fred earns market value= for his work and John does not, it is not the case that Fred is privileged.=C2=A0 Fred and other= s should work to ensure that John is paid market value as well.=C2=A0 If yo= u still fail or refuse to grasp the difference, then I cannot help you.<br> <br> Indeed, the use of "privileged" implies it is undeserved.=C2=A0 T= hank you for making my point!=C2=A0 I do not have privilege.=C2=A0 Rather, = I believe I have been treated fairly.=C2=A0 The sad truth is that others ha= ve not been treated fairly and are not being treated fairly.=C2=A0 I never suggested that such societal inequities and injustices are irrelev= ant simply because some do not face them.=C2=A0 That's your invention.= =C2=A0 I did say, that, in our field, I do not think such injustices are su= bstantive.=C2=A0 It is not for me to acceded to your insistence that I prove the null hypothesis.=C2=A0 It is, rather, incumben= t upon you to demonstrate that, in our field, such injustice exists in subs= tantive fashion.<br> <br> This is not about allies or "sides."=C2=A0 Your thinking reflects= the corruption wrought by polarization.=C2=A0 I do not deny the societal i= lls identified.=C2=A0 I simply have a different view of how they arose and = persist.=C2=A0 That they should be addressed is undeniable, as I see it.=C2=A0 Still, this is the Auditory List.=C2=A0 I limited my comme= nts regarding the existence of injustices (or lack thereof), to our field.<= br> </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><br> On 6/10/2023 12:50 PM, Lesicko, Alexandria wrote:</span></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <p align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;background:#d5eaff"> <span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:red">*** Attention: This is an extern= al email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links.= ***</span></p> </div> <div> <p>There is no difference. By analogy: =E2=80=9Cit is ok to say that 3 is 5= less than 8 but we mustn=E2=80=99t suggest that 8 is 5 more than 3.=E2=80= =9D No matter what phrasing of it makes you feel comfortable, you are refer= ring to the same gap of 5, the same inequity in access to resources, support, etc. There is no such thing as <i>deserve= d</i> privilege. It would be very weird to say, =E2=80=9CI deserved to be b= orn white=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI deserved to be born a man.=E2=80=9D Privil= ege can stem from circumstances outside of our control. Regardless, those of us who were born with it still benefit from it. That does not mea= n, for example, that I must hate myself to atone for it, nor does it mean t= hat everything I have accomplished in my life is a direct cause of my white= ness and must be reduced to this factor. But it does mean that I very likely had an easier time in my life = and my career than I would have had I been born otherwise. I think recogniz= ing that is the first step in having more supportive and less harmful inter= actions with the people around me who come from different backgrounds with different lived experiences.<span= >=C2=A0</span></p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>To those suggesting that these issues are irrelevant to them because the= y have succeeded in the face of obstacles, you are again missing the point.= Your personal experience is not universal, and one example of success does= not negate the fact that others suffer the consequences of bias and discrimination. If you wor= k in science, you are part of an international community made up of people = from diverse backgrounds, meaning these issues are relevant to you and the = manner in which you engage with other scientists. Further, by saying that these issues are non-existent, t= rivial, or irrelevant, you are sending a message to anyone in your field wh= o may experience bias or discrimination that they cannot come to you for su= pport and allyship, because you have already minimized or devalued their experiences. Thank you to Matt, M= ario, David, Ken, and everyone else on this thread who have demonstrated al= lyship - one benefit of having these conversations out in the open is that = members of the community know who they can turn to in the face of such issues.<span>=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in"> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:= black">From: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AUDITORY - Research= in Auditory Perception <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe= rrer"><AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx></a> on behalf of Vani Rajendran <a href=3D"mailto:vani.g.rajendran@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nore= ferrer"><vani.g.rajendran@xxxxxxxx></a><br> <b>Date: </b>Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:37 AM<br> <b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" re= l=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe= rrer"><AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx></a><br> <b>Subject: </b>Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust</span></p> </div> <div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt">I'm sorry if I'm being thick but= what exactly is the difference?</span></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt">=C2=A0</span></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt">If the cards are being stacked against r= ather than in favor... ok... but who benefits from the stacking? Who decide= s the stacking?</span></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt">=C2=A0</span></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt">Vani</span></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt">=C2=A0</span></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt">=C2=A0</span></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt">=C2=A0</span></p> </div> <div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Jun 9, 2023, 22:11 Les Bernstei= n <<a href=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noref= errer">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:</span></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i= n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-= bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">I agree with Ken&= #39;s views, save for this statement:<br> <br> <i>The cards are stacked in favor of those with privilege...<br> <br> </i>No, the cards are stacked <b><i>against </i></b>those unfairly denied o= pportunity and dignity.=C2=A0 The difference is both non-trivial and crucia= l.<br> <br> Les<br> </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><br> On 6/9/2023 4:12 PM, Ken Grant wrote:</span></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <p align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;background:#d5eaff"> <span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:red">*** Attention: This is an extern= al email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links.= ***</span></p> </div> <div> <div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Thank you Alexandria for expressing wha= t it means to have systemic obstacles and barriers to success throughout ou= r society. Folks=C2=A0got upset when the Black Lives Matter movement took o= ff because they were wondering "don't White Lives Matter as well". Anyone who fel= t this=C2=A0way misunderstood the entire enterprise. Nobody ever claimed th= at white lives don't=C2=A0matter, or matter more, or matter less. A goo= d friend suggested that, if the Black Lives Matter movement had printed signs that read "Black Lives Matter Too". While I un= derstood his point and that I can see how this might have helped white male= americans feel better, this too misses the point. Centuries of inequities = do not get wiped away in an instant. Declaring racism over is a monstrous=C2=A0error. Some scientists rise to the top of = their fields by working very very hard. But as the cartoon displayed, not a= ll children, adolescents, or teens have the same opportunities. The cards a= re stacked in favor of those with privilege,=C2=A0and your comment that recognizing this fact might make us more willing and abl= e to consider these systemic obstacles.</span></p> </div> </div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:15=E2=80=AFAM= Bernstein,Leslie <<a href=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_bla= nk" rel=3D"noreferrer">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:</span></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i= n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-= bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">I disagree.=C2=A0 I think I understand = the points and the reality quite well. </span></p> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Les </span></p> </div> </div> <div align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span style=3D"font-size:= 11.0pt"> <hr width=3D"60%" size=3D"0" align=3D"center"> </span></div> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">From:= </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> "Lesicko, Alexandria"= ; <<a href=3D"mailto:Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx" target= =3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx</a= >><br> <b>Date:</b> Thu, Jun 8, 2023, 5:06 PM<br> <b>To:</b> "Bernstein,Leslie" <<a href=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx= hc.edu" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>>, <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe= rrer"> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust</span></p> <div> <div> <p align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;background:#d5eaff"> <span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:red">*** Attention: This is an extern= al email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links.= ***</span></p> </div> <div> <div> <p>I think it's important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the &qu= ot;reference level."=C2=A0 The societal inequities that exist are not = because I and other "white guys" (i.e., the "Richards" = in the cartoon) were given some <b><i>undeserved</i></b><i> </i>privilege but, rather, because some minorit= ies and cultures (i.e., the Paula's in the cartoon) have been unfairly = denied <b><i>their </i></b>due.=C2=A0 I think it very much matters where one perce= ives the unfairness to be.</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p><b>I think you are missing the main point of the cartoons that have been= shared here. They are meant to illustrate the point that our gender, racia= l, etc. identities and economic realities shape our experiences and opportu= nities in science and in the world. This benefits some people and works against others. The =E2=80=9Cperceived= unfairness=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t on one side of the coin or the other, it= is all a product of the same system.</b></p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to be misguide= d folly=C2=A0 I will not apologize for what I have accomplished and for wha= t I have.=C2=A0 It was not handed to me.=C2=A0 For those who still don'= t understand, I'll say it again.=C2=A0 The social injustice lies in the fact that the less fortunate (often minority cultures and ethnicities)= have been denied the opportunity and dignity they deserve as human beings.= =C2=A0 That is where we must focus our efforts for change.</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p><b>I think this is also a misunderstanding - I don=E2=80=99t think that = the concept of privilege invokes self-loathing. Nobody is asking you to apo= logize and hate yourself for whatever privileges you may have. Further, nob= ody is saying that you have not worked hard for your accomplishments. My understanding of acknowledging privilege is t= hat it is about humility rather than self-loathing. For example, understand= ing that my path in life and in my career may have looked different and inv= olved more obstacles if I were a person of color, queer, disabled, etc. You can still be proud of your acco= mplishments and your hard work while acknowledging this. I also don=E2=80= =99t think acknowledging privilege is the end goal in these discussions or = an exercise unto itself, but a necessary step in the process of beginning to tackle the social injustices that you menti= on above. If we cannot first admit that these factors play a role in our tr= ajectories, then it is hard to get any further in enacting change - we are = blind to what we are trying to tackle.</b></p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any = hierarchy, there are biases that come into play.=C2=A0 That's because t= hey are all human endeavors.=C2=A0 Matters of degree count!=C2=A0 In our fi= eld of auditory science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have asserted that discriminatory factors <b><= i>must </i></b>be at play to a <b><i>substantial degree</i></b>. I think that is p= atently false and my observations across decades support that belief.</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p><b>You cannot say that because you have not experienced or witnessed dis= crimination in this field that it does not exist. All you can say is that y= ou have not experienced or witnessed it. Other people on this thread are te= lling you that their experiences have been different (and citing literature that points to the existence of= bias and discrimination at large). Again, it is important to listen to and= acknowledge the experiences of other people if we want to address social i= njustice. People from different demographic backgrounds can have radically different experiences of the sa= me community. You can simultaneously take pride in your field and your comm= unity and want to make it better.</b></p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>Some of you have acted as "scientists" drawing conclusions on = the basis of essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personal= ly, must have a myopic view because you assume that I'm just another fa= irly successful old white guy.=C2=A0 Shame on you.=C2=A0 You know nothing of my history and that of my family.=C2=A0 You commit the= genetic fallacy, that of evaluating an idea on the basis of <b><i>who </i></b>generated the idea, rather than on the merits of the idea= , <i>per se</i>.=C2=A0 In so doing, you commit the very sin that you decry = so vociferously in self-righteous fashion!</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p><b>It seems that most people are replying directly to what you said, poi= nt-by-point, not assuming that you must be myopic because you are, as you d= escribe, a =E2=80=9Cfairly successful old white guy=E2=80=9D. </b><b><span>=F0=9F=98=8A</span> </b></p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>I suggest that you read <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/ww= w.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/696856/woke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/__;!!Cn= _UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiHVy_INKv0r3PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-NjlpyLdKM= 4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSxx7WGig$" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferre= r"> this excellent work</a> by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter.</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific re= sults.=C2=A0 I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to tha= t topic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List.</p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p><b>I don=E2=80=99t think that these topics are inappropriate and are act= ually very important and beneficial to discuss.</b></p> <p>=C2=A0</p> <p>Les</p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in"> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:= black">From: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AUDITORY - Research= in Auditory Perception <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" tar= get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> on behal= f of Les Bernstein <<a href=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_bl= ank" rel=3D"noreferrer">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>><br> <b>Date: </b>Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:10 AM<br> <b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" re= l=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITOR= Y@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LL.CA</a>><br> <b>Subject: </b>[External] Re: arXiv web of trust</span></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">I think it's = important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the "reference level.&= quot;=C2=A0 The societal inequities that exist are not because I and other = "white guys" (i.e., the "Richards" in the cartoon) were given some <b><i>undeserved</i><= /b><i> </i>privilege but, rather, because some minorities and cultures (i.e= ., the Paula's in the cartoon) have been unfairly denied <b><i>their </i></b>due.=C2=A0 I think it very much matters where one perce= ives the unfairness to be.<br> <br> I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to be misguided f= olly=C2=A0 I will not apologize for what I have accomplished and for what I= have.=C2=A0 It was not handed to me.=C2=A0 For those who still don't u= nderstand, I'll say it again.=C2=A0 The social injustice lies in the fact that the less fortunate (often minority cultures and ethnicities) hav= e been denied the opportunity and dignity they deserve as human beings.=C2= =A0 That is where we must focus our efforts for change.<br> <br> It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any hie= rarchy, there are biases that come into play.=C2=A0 That's because they= are all human endeavors.=C2=A0 Matters of degree count!=C2=A0 In our field= of auditory science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have asserted that discriminatory factors <b><i>must </= i></b>be at play to a <b><i>substantial degree</i></b>. I think that is patently false and my obs= ervations across decades support that belief.<br> <br> Some of you have acted as "scientists" drawing conclusions on the= basis of essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personally,= must have a myopic view because you assume that I'm just another fairl= y successful old white guy.=C2=A0 Shame on you.=C2=A0 You know nothing of my history and that of my family.=C2=A0 You commit the gen= etic fallacy, that of evaluating an idea on the basis of <b><i>who </i></b>generated the idea, rather than on the merits of the idea= , <i>per se</i>.=C2=A0 In so doing, you commit the very sin that you decry = so vociferously in self-righteous fashion!<br> <br> I suggest that you read </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><a href=3D"= https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/696856/= woke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/__;!!Cn_UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiHVy_INK= v0r3PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-NjlpyLdKM4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSxx7WGig= $" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetic= a">this excellent work</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil= y:Helvetica"> by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter.<br> <br> This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific resul= ts.=C2=A0 I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to that t= opic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List.<br> <br> Les<br> </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><br> On 6/4/2023 9:24 PM, Svirsky, Mario wrote:</span></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <p align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;background:#d5eaff"> <span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:red">*** Attention: This is an extern= al email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links.= ***</span></p> </div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">I have a small contribution to the very= interesting conversation between Matt Winn and Les Bernstein.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">I recommend those of you who are also i= nterested in this conversation watch =E2=80=9CPicture a Scientist=E2=80=9D,= which is on Netflix in the U.S. until June 12. It is a fascinating descrip= tion of some of the obstacles faced by women in general and black women in particular, in academia.</spa= n></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">I agree with Les that, ideally, status = as a researcher should be earned by a person=E2=80=99s contributions to the= ir field. The problem is that in the real world women get fewer resources a= nd less recognition than men given the same intellect and productivity. Ditto for minorities. = =E2=80=9CPicture a Scientist=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t even get into the iss= ues of class, nationality, or able bodiedness, which are also important.</s= pan></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Or instead of watching Picture a Scient= ist (which, after all, will take you 103 minutes), you could invest just tw= o minutes in reading the cartoon below. About the concept of having things = handed to you on a plate (or =E2=80=9Cbeing born on third base and thinking you h= it a triple=E2=80=9D, a quote attributed to Barry Switzer, 1986).</span></p= > <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><img id=3D"m_-8970087675165491979x_m_-8= 064564293141944595m_7215464527543903297m_-8185742895131692532m_190258475134= 75709m_115388476549226764_x005f_x0000_i1030" width=3D"702" height=3D"977" b= order=3D"0" style=3D"width:7.3125in;height:10.177in"></span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><img id=3D"m_-8970087675165491979x_m_-8= 064564293141944595m_7215464527543903297m_-8185742895131692532m_190258475134= 75709m_115388476549226764Picture_x0020_4" width=3D"702" height=3D"983" bord= er=3D"0" style=3D"width:7.3125in;height:10.2395in"><img id=3D"m_-8970087675= 165491979x_m_-8064564293141944595m_7215464527543903297m_-818574289513169253= 2m_19025847513475709m_115388476549226764Picture_x0020_5" width=3D"702" heig= ht=3D"982" border=3D"0" style=3D"width:7.3125in;height:10.2291in"></span></= p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><img id=3D"m_-8970087675165491979x_m_-8= 064564293141944595m_7215464527543903297m_-8185742895131692532m_190258475134= 75709m_115388476549226764Picture_x0020_3" width=3D"702" height=3D"1014" bor= der=3D"0" style=3D"width:7.3125in;height:10.5625in"></span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> <p><span lang=3D"IT" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Papyrus&qu= ot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">Mario A. Svirsky, Ph.D.</span>= </p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Papyrus"= ;,sans-serif;color:black">Noel L. Cohen Professor of Hearing Science,</span= ></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Papyrus"= ;,sans-serif;color:black">Professor of Otolaryngology (School of Medicine) = and Neural Science</span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Papyrus"= ;,sans-serif;color:black">Vice-Chairman for Research</span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&= quot;Papyrus",sans-serif;color:black">Department of Otolaryngology</sp= an></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">= =C2=A0</span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">= =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><img id=3D"m_-897= 0087675165491979x_m_-8064564293141944595m_7215464527543903297m_-81857428951= 31692532m_19025847513475709m_115388476549226764Picture_x0020_2" width=3D"37= 8" height=3D"117" border=3D"0" style=3D"width:3.9375in;height:1.2187in"></s= pan></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial&quo= t;,sans-serif;color:black">Address:</span></b></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",= sans-serif;color:black">Dept. of Otolaryngology=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<b>Phone=C2=A0</b>(direct)<b>:</b>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 212-263-7217</span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",= sans-serif;color:black">NYU=C2=A0Langone Medical Center=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<b>Fax:</b>=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 212-263-7604 or 212-263-8257</span></p= > <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",= sans-serif;color:black">550 First Ave., NBV-5E5=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",= sans-serif;color:black">New York, NY 10016</span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Tahoma"= ,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",= sans-serif;color:black">Pronouns: he, him, his</span></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><= /b></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"color:black">CONFIDENTIAL -= NYU SCHOOL OF MEDICINE SENSITIVE DOCUMENT</span></b></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Tahoma&qu= ot;,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span></b></p> <p style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Tahoma"= ,sans-serif;color:black">=E2=80=9CThis email message, including any attachm= ents, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain info= rmation that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, = use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this e= mail in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the origi= nal message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. T= he organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus tra= nsmitted by this email.=E2=80=9D</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p> </div> </blockquote> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</= span></p> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">-- </span></p> <div> <div> <p><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Leslie R. Be= rnstein, Ph.D. | </span></b><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Profess= or Emeritus</span></p> <div> <div> <div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Depts. of Neuro= science and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of Medicine </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><br> </span><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">263 Farming= ton Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt= "><br> </span><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Office: 860= .679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495<br> <br> <img id=3D"m_-8970087675165491979x_m_-8064564293141944595m_7215464527543903= 297m_-8185742895131692532m_19025847513475709m_115388476549226764Picture_x00= 20_1" width=3D"125" height=3D"48" border=3D"0" style=3D"width:1.302in;heigh= t:.5in"></span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </blockquote> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</= span></p> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">-- </span></p> <div> <div> <p><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. | </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Professor Emeritus</span></p> <div> <div> <div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Oto= laryngology) | UConn School of Medicine <br> 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401<br> Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495<br> <br> <img id=3D"m_-8970087675165491979x__x0000_i1026" width=3D"125" height=3D"48= " border=3D"0" style=3D"width:1.302in;height:.5in"></span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <p style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</= span></p> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">-- </span></p> <div> <div> <p><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Leslie R. Be= rnstein, Ph.D. </span></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">| </= span></b><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Professor= Emeritus</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"></span></p> <div> <div> <div> <div> <p><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Depts. of Neuro= science and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of Medicine </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><br> </span><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">263 Farming= ton Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt= "><br> </span><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Office: 860= .679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495<br> <br> <img id=3D"m_-8970087675165491979x__x0000_i1025" width=3D"125" height=3D"48= " border=3D"0" style=3D"width:1.302in;height:.5in" src=3D"cid:part1.nRTLLd7= P.WAkwxcV2@xxxxxxxx"></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"></span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <br> <br> <div>-- <br> <div> <div><b><span>Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. </span> </b><b><span>| </span></b><span>Professor Emeritus</span><span></span><span= ></span><br> <div> <div> <div><span></span> <div><span>Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn Scho= ol of Medicine </span><br> <span></span><span>263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401</span><= br> <span></span><span>Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495<br> <br> <img alt=3D"" width=3D"125" height=3D"48" src=3D"cid:part2.lTjsjzjV.1WVEoMf= S@xxxxxxxx"><br> </span></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <hr> De inhoud van dit bericht is vertrouwelijk en alleen bestemd voor de geadre= sseerde(n). Anderen dan de geadresseerde(n) mogen geen gebruik maken van di= t bericht, het niet openbaar maken of op enige wijze verspreiden of vermeni= gvuldigen. Het UMCG kan niet aansprakelijk gesteld worden voor een incomplete aankomst of vertraging van dit verzonde= n bericht. <br> <br> The contents of this message are confidential and only intended for the eye= s of the addressee(s). Others than the addressee(s) are not allowed to use = this message, to make it public or to distribute or multiply this message i= n any way. The UMCG cannot be held responsible for incomplete reception or delay of this transferred message. </div> </blockquote></div> --000000000000371f1205fde02c95-- --000000000000371f1305fde02c96 Content-Type: image/png; name="image001.png" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <188ac09d4334cff311> X-Attachment-Id: 188ac09d4334cff311 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAH0AAAAwCAMAAAALmIWlAAAAGXRFWHRTb2Z0d2FyZQBBZG9iZSBJ bWFnZVJlYWR5ccllPAAAADNQTFRFKzVYHCZM4eLn8PHzpKi30dTbaG+IlZqrs7fDWWB8O0Nkd32U wsXPSlJwhoufDRhA////A68jmAAAABF0Uk5T/////////////////////wAlrZliAAACYklEQVR4 2uzY22KDIAwAUC7e6gjw/187gUC4OetaupflaTXKWSuBKNMuJptC+QMCP20auPHBQCubBWU46K24 uB7NfZ58ZqaMP8D8AEBHtT/goXnB8WPwBf8r1WYUXWxUOZobHcJXIMcfONclmE4s0lrRzYBIOjvT jX5WV6YbP2ZQJ6TWjfiAbuYzHW7p+xpuolQrP83sjQ5nupnu6LqaJ92MbnSznulcfkBHpNXNY6y+ c0JKnWX1eFeflQt5qcNESKnrQMrf6LSAXeiWkEoXdOU4nZBKxzPnoTohtW5ZZyK8W09Io6tYjyP1 iDS6XbAeh815S0irS6zHUfXuB0Ok1S3W41AdEWh1/Nb7UD1bWytd0LY4ThdnerYbBJ1taT5XBmy4 J8mNnWagp5fbba6HeiTdneK6vNgoFj0EhyO4eSZT6AlpdNXoNzqYi94GbIU0eqhHp3d5drRf4heZ Uo9Iq8vYptup6VB37H6m/W6m0hFpdaxH3/yK9cHpVq5Zy59n2GMV/QxPGdV9NElPE9njyOozsfWW Kq6j7bLuw97KPBnM/mX86//6n+tH/yLKP7AUXcyd80Lx53WnspB47ty5qKND1gLockfIFzHR7srp Q7X0+6GgHPNFXedPyaN1CPFli71z+ZBeTxbcI2RXxwOQj/lW/Ui610Z6gA4a32WRrssXYbO76V/Z y6FLnZVj/qCnqGcdZE1DeFKcntWrMV/RZXCh7B/fpF/+8tQQx6J74y9/Oeuyrm75+Jyf8oKWH9CL 1SYNJtJ91HTOAD2fdjPN9UcsumwmDNYXqvPtOLa9pH8LMACnoV0siZAyOAAAAABJRU5ErkJgggAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== --000000000000371f1305fde02c96 Content-Type: image/png; name="image001.png" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <188ac09d4334cff312> X-Attachment-Id: 188ac09d4334cff312 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAH0AAAAwCAMAAAALmIWlAAAAGXRFWHRTb2Z0d2FyZQBBZG9iZSBJ bWFnZVJlYWR5ccllPAAAADNQTFRFKzVYHCZM4eLn8PHzpKi30dTbaG+IlZqrs7fDWWB8O0Nkd32U wsXPSlJwhoufDRhA////A68jmAAAABF0Uk5T/////////////////////wAlrZliAAACYklEQVR4 2uzY22KDIAwAUC7e6gjw/187gUC4OetaupflaTXKWSuBKNMuJptC+QMCP20auPHBQCubBWU46K24 uB7NfZ58ZqaMP8D8AEBHtT/goXnB8WPwBf8r1WYUXWxUOZobHcJXIMcfONclmE4s0lrRzYBIOjvT jX5WV6YbP2ZQJ6TWjfiAbuYzHW7p+xpuolQrP83sjQ5nupnu6LqaJ92MbnSznulcfkBHpNXNY6y+ c0JKnWX1eFeflQt5qcNESKnrQMrf6LSAXeiWkEoXdOU4nZBKxzPnoTohtW5ZZyK8W09Io6tYjyP1 iDS6XbAeh815S0irS6zHUfXuB0Ok1S3W41AdEWh1/Nb7UD1bWytd0LY4ThdnerYbBJ1taT5XBmy4 J8mNnWagp5fbba6HeiTdneK6vNgoFj0EhyO4eSZT6AlpdNXoNzqYi94GbIU0eqhHp3d5drRf4heZ Uo9Iq8vYptup6VB37H6m/W6m0hFpdaxH3/yK9cHpVq5Zy59n2GMV/QxPGdV9NElPE9njyOozsfWW Kq6j7bLuw97KPBnM/mX86//6n+tH/yLKP7AUXcyd80Lx53WnspB47ty5qKND1gLockfIFzHR7srp Q7X0+6GgHPNFXedPyaN1CPFli71z+ZBeTxbcI2RXxwOQj/lW/Ui610Z6gA4a32WRrssXYbO76V/Z y6FLnZVj/qCnqGcdZE1DeFKcntWrMV/RZXCh7B/fpF/+8tQQx6J74y9/Oeuyrm75+Jyf8oKWH9CL 1SYNJtJ91HTOAD2fdjPN9UcsumwmDNYXqvPtOLa9pH8LMACnoV0siZAyOAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== --000000000000371f1305fde02c96 Content-Type: image/png; name="image001.png" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <> X-Attachment-Id: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAH0AAAAwCAMAAAALmIWlAAAAGXRFWHRTb2Z0d2FyZQBBZG9iZSBJ bWFnZVJlYWR5ccllPAAAADNQTFRFKzVYHCZM4eLn8PHzpKi30dTbaG+IlZqrs7fDWWB8O0Nkd32U wsXPSlJwhoufDRhA////A68jmAAAABF0Uk5T/////////////////////wAlrZliAAACYklEQVR4 2uzY22KDIAwAUC7e6gjw/187gUC4OetaupflaTXKWSuBKNMuJptC+QMCP20auPHBQCubBWU46K24 uB7NfZ58ZqaMP8D8AEBHtT/goXnB8WPwBf8r1WYUXWxUOZobHcJXIMcfONclmE4s0lrRzYBIOjvT jX5WV6YbP2ZQJ6TWjfiAbuYzHW7p+xpuolQrP83sjQ5nupnu6LqaJ92MbnSznulcfkBHpNXNY6y+ c0JKnWX1eFeflQt5qcNESKnrQMrf6LSAXeiWkEoXdOU4nZBKxzPnoTohtW5ZZyK8W09Io6tYjyP1 iDS6XbAeh815S0irS6zHUfXuB0Ok1S3W41AdEWh1/Nb7UD1bWytd0LY4ThdnerYbBJ1taT5XBmy4 J8mNnWagp5fbba6HeiTdneK6vNgoFj0EhyO4eSZT6AlpdNXoNzqYi94GbIU0eqhHp3d5drRf4heZ Uo9Iq8vYptup6VB37H6m/W6m0hFpdaxH3/yK9cHpVq5Zy59n2GMV/QxPGdV9NElPE9njyOozsfWW Kq6j7bLuw97KPBnM/mX86//6n+tH/yLKP7AUXcyd80Lx53WnspB47ty5qKND1gLockfIFzHR7srp Q7X0+6GgHPNFXedPyaN1CPFli71z+ZBeTxbcI2RXxwOQj/lW/Ui610Z6gA4a32WRrssXYbO76V/Z y6FLnZVj/qCnqGcdZE1DeFKcntWrMV/RZXCh7B/fpF/+8tQQx6J74y9/Oeuyrm75+Jyf8oKWH9CL 1SYNJtJ91HTOAD2fdjPN9UcsumwmDNYXqvPtOLa9pH8LMACnoV0siZAyOAAAAABJRU5ErkJgggAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== --000000000000371f1305fde02c96--