Re: [AUDITORY] [External] Re: arXiv web of trust (Douglas Scott )

Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] [External] Re: arXiv web of trust From: Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2023 19:59:00 -0400 --00000000000055df1205fdf78198 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alex I think we can all agree that reducing or even eliminating unfairness is a good thing to strive for, but the problem is how to go about achieving it. The danger is thinking that one can redress historic harms by counterbalancing with current deprivations. Not only has that never worked, and has always been actively counterproductive, but it couldn't even conceivably work in principle. The problem is that every human interaction involves countless needs and wants, such that if we were to try to balance external outcomes like (say) money, we are not doing anything towards achieving fairness. People value things like time, physical well being, risk, free-time and sorts of things differently, along with monetary compensation. Obviously, there are things that, with hindsight, were unfair in the past. But that doesn't mean that we could have fixed it even if we were to go back to that past with present knowledge and the power of redress. The result of such meddling would inevitably either be (a) some other unfairness or (b) a worse bargain for everyone involved at the time the bargain was made. It would be a Faustian game. How much more difficult is it to imagine that we can now, in the present, do things that would re-balance things involving other people who have long since passed without causing worse imbalance (or deficiencies) for those yet to come? I feel that the correct way to go about things is to always maximize efficiencies in the present, while acknowledging mistakes made by past peoples as valuable lessons to guide our way. We simply can't fix historical unfairness with unfairness today. The only way forward is with fairness. What we can learn from the past is that harms of unfairness stick around, and to the extent that we can do better, we should. But that will never stop future peoples from looking back and (rightfully or wrongfully) identifying what they, from their future perspective, would consider to be unfair either then or now. I realize, of course, that there is much more at play in all of this, and it's never *that* simple. It certainly is not my place to decide for others (past, present or future), what is or is not fair. But all too often we risk becoming the pawns of others who stir the flames of righteous indignation in us for their own benefit. The cycle stops when we choose to stop the cycle, not when accounts are settled. Because the accounts will never truly be settled as long as human beings with their wonderfully irrational passions are involved. We shouldn't smother our humanity in a vain attempt to satisfy the machine. Douglas Scott On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 at 18:02, Lesicko, Alexandria < Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Hi Doug, > > > > Thanks for your reply =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m trying to understand what you= are saying here, > but not sure I am understanding you correctly. I don=E2=80=99t think I am= saying > that we should increase prejudice under any justification, noble or not. = I > think when people talk about reducing bias they are arguing for the > minimization of prejudice =E2=80=93 reducing the likelihood that people w= ill be > treated unfairly based on demographic factors. I think the goal is to sto= p > perpetuating historic harms, and I don=E2=80=99t think that the act of at= tempting > to redress them means that we are guaranteed to perpetuate them. I think > sometimes people put forth an argument for =E2=80=9Ccolor blindness=E2=80= =9D =E2=80=93 that we > shouldn=E2=80=99t even acknowledge that people differ in their race, etc.= , and that > doing so is in and of itself discriminatory. But I would argue that this > just further blinds us to instances when people are being discriminated > against based on these factors. I=E2=80=99m not sure if that=E2=80=99s wh= at you=E2=80=99re arguing > for here or not. I do think minimization of harm caused by bias and > prejudice is a desirable outcome, both as an end to itself and because > diversity makes science better and more creative. > > > > Best, > > Alex > > > > *From: *Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> > *Date: *Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 5:13 PM > *To: *Lesicko, Alexandria <Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx> > *Cc: *AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Subject: *Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust > > Hi Alex > > > > Thanks for the valuable perspective. > > > > I understand that position, but I still think it is fundamentally > misguided. > > > > Prejudice, however noble the justification, affects individuals and > perpetuates historic harms, even in tge act of attempting to redress them= . > > > > It's just playing the same old game, in the end, just with different > players. > > > > The big fallacy at the root of it all is the idea thag eqaulity of outcom= e > is a desirable outcome, the absence if which is an evil that needs to be > exorcised. > > > > I'd say the opposite. I want to make choices and have those choices resul= t > in different outcomes, even if a subset of those outcomes could be > condidered dettimental to me, at present or with hindsight. > > > > The alternative is the denial of my humanity. > > > > Doug > > > > On Sun, Jun 11, 2023, 16:35 Lesicko, Alexandria, < > Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Hi Doug, > > > > Thanks for your email =E2=80=93 there are at least two separate but overl= apping > concepts being discussed here. One is systemic bias, a reflection of unfa= ir > treatment at the institutional level toward individuals of marginalized > groups. In academia, we see examples of this in gender and race gaps in > funding, faculty positions, citations, etc. There is also implicit bias, > which reflects unfairness directed by someone from a privileged group > toward an individual from a marginalized group. We cannot say that just > because someone is from a given background they have absolutely faced > implicit bias or have perpetuated it, and I don=E2=80=99t think anyone is= trying to > claim that here. But the academic system is wrought with systemic bias, a= nd > we have a lot of research and data to support this (see some of the > citations others have posted here). The point of the conversation isn=E2= =80=99t to > victimize individuals based on their minority status or demonize > individuals based on their privilege, the point is to acknowledge that th= is > bias exists to make the academic system fairer. Part of that starts with > acknowledging in what ways we are part of privileged groups with the > express goal of reducing the likelihood that we will perpetuate the harm = of > implicit bias. I think a common fallacy in these conversations is that we > are reducing the success of those from privileged groups to their > demographics (or vice versa). Rather, we are suggesting, based on our dat= a > that reflects systemic bias, that individuals from privileged groups are > more likely to benefit from their demographic backgrounds and that > individuals from marginalized groups are more likely to suffer. This is w= hy > individual examples become moot in this conversation =E2=80=93 one exampl= e of a > minority who has been treated fairly and one example of a privileged pers= on > who has not does not erase the existence of systemic bias, which is by > definition an institutional problem. I hope this clears things up! > > > > Best, > > Alex > > > > *From: *Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> > *Date: *Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 3:51 PM > *To: *Lesicko, Alexandria <Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx> > *Cc: *AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Subject: *Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust > > There is no valid inference from someone's gender, race or cultural > background to whether they have been treated fairly. > > > > We can talk probalities, sure. But as a younger academic not from America > who hasn't "made it" I know if a lot example of people of all sort being > unfairly advantaged and disadvantaged. > > > > Prejuduce > > > > On Sun, Jun 11, 2023, 00:14 Lesicko, Alexandria, < > Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Using a reference as a standard in this case only makes sense if you > assume adequate resources. If we do not have enough money to pay both Fre= d > and John at market value, what do we do? There is a limited amount of > scientific funding, a limited number of faculty jobs, etc. Historically, > people from certain demographic backgrounds have largely been the > recipients of this funding and have populated these positions. If people > who look like Fred are repeatedly chosen to get grants and to fill facult= y > slots, while people who look like John are not, can we just throw our han= ds > in the air and say =E2=80=9Cwell, Fred is being treated fairly=E2=80=9D? = No, Fred is > benefitting from the privileges of his demographic background while John = is > not. So yes, I do understand the difference between two values and the ca= se > when one is a reference (I have, after all, been a trainee in this field > for over 10 years!), but I question the validity of using a reference her= e > at all. > > > > I didn=E2=80=99t make your point, you negated it. You stated that you and= =E2=80=9Cother > white guys=E2=80=9D were not given some undeserved privilege and that not= hing was > handed to you, implying that you deserve the privilege you have and that > therefore privilege can somehow be earned. Now you suggest you have no > privilege at all. I have maintained throughout this conversation that > privilege can reflect factors outside of our control, such as our race an= d > gender, and is undeserved. Suggesting you have no privilege implies that > people are, in fact, not treated differently based on these demographic > factors. If your life would have looked any different by altering any one > of these factors, for example if you were born a black man or a white > woman, then you have privilege. > > > > You have decided that injustice does not exist in our field basely solely > and entirely on your own lived experience. Why is your experience the nul= l > hypothesis? How is that scientific? Others have supported their arguments > with references and citations, you have not contributed anything other th= an > your own perspective, which is the perspective of, in your words, =E2=80= =9Ca fairly > successful old white guy.=E2=80=9D > > > > Allyship is not about =E2=80=9Ctaking sides=E2=80=9D, it is about listeni= ng to, > supporting, and advocating for people from different backgrounds than you= r > own. There=E2=80=99s been a great show of that on this thread and that is= a > positive product of this conversation. I don=E2=80=99t think acknowledgin= g that is > stoking polarization. > > > > > > *From: *Les Bernstein <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx> > *Date: *Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 2:51 PM > *To: *Lesicko, Alexandria <Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx>, > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Subject: *Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust > > It is most unfortunate that you do not understand the distinctions betwee= n > a simple difference between two values and the case when one is a > reference. If Fred earns market value for his work and John does not, it > is not the case that Fred is privileged. Fred and others should work to > ensure that John is paid market value as well. If you still fail or refu= se > to grasp the difference, then I cannot help you. > > Indeed, the use of "privileged" implies it is undeserved. Thank you for > making my point! I do not have privilege. Rather, I believe I have been > treated fairly. The sad truth is that others have not been treated fairl= y > and are not being treated fairly. I never suggested that such societal > inequities and injustices are irrelevant simply because some do not face > them. That's your invention. I did say, that, in our field, I do not > think such injustices are substantive. It is not for me to acceded to yo= ur > insistence that I prove the null hypothesis. It is, rather, incumbent up= on > you to demonstrate that, in our field, such injustice exists in substanti= ve > fashion. > > This is not about allies or "sides." Your thinking reflects the > corruption wrought by polarization. I do not deny the societal ills > identified. I simply have a different view of how they arose and persist= . > That they should be addressed is undeniable, as I see it. Still, this is > the Auditory List. I limited my comments regarding the existence of > injustices (or lack thereof), to our field. > > On 6/10/2023 12:50 PM, Lesicko, Alexandria wrote: > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening > attachments or clicking on links. *** > > There is no difference. By analogy: =E2=80=9Cit is ok to say that 3 is 5 = less than > 8 but we mustn=E2=80=99t suggest that 8 is 5 more than 3.=E2=80=9D No mat= ter what phrasing > of it makes you feel comfortable, you are referring to the same gap of 5, > the same inequity in access to resources, support, etc. There is no such > thing as *deserved* privilege. It would be very weird to say, =E2=80=9CI = deserved > to be born white=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI deserved to be born a man.=E2=80= =9D Privilege can stem from > circumstances outside of our control. Regardless, those of us who were bo= rn > with it still benefit from it. That does not mean, for example, that I mu= st > hate myself to atone for it, nor does it mean that everything I have > accomplished in my life is a direct cause of my whiteness and must be > reduced to this factor. But it does mean that I very likely had an easier > time in my life and my career than I would have had I been born otherwise= . > I think recognizing that is the first step in having more supportive and > less harmful interactions with the people around me who come from differe= nt > backgrounds with different lived experiences. > > > > To those suggesting that these issues are irrelevant to them because they > have succeeded in the face of obstacles, you are again missing the point. > Your personal experience is not universal, and one example of success doe= s > not negate the fact that others suffer the consequences of bias and > discrimination. If you work in science, you are part of an international > community made up of people from diverse backgrounds, meaning these issue= s > are relevant to you and the manner in which you engage with other > scientists. Further, by saying that these issues are non-existent, trivia= l, > or irrelevant, you are sending a message to anyone in your field who may > experience bias or discrimination that they cannot come to you for suppor= t > and allyship, because you have already minimized or devalued their > experiences. Thank you to Matt, Mario, David, Ken, and everyone else on > this thread who have demonstrated allyship - one benefit of having these > conversations out in the open is that members of the community know who > they can turn to in the face of such issues. > > > > > > *From: *AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception > <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Vani > Rajendran <vani.g.rajendran@xxxxxxxx> <vani.g.rajendran@xxxxxxxx> > *Date: *Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:37 AM > *To: *AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Subject: *Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust > > I'm sorry if I'm being thick but what exactly is the difference? > > > > If the cards are being stacked against rather than in favor... ok... but > who benefits from the stacking? Who decides the stacking? > > > > Vani > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 9, 2023, 22:11 Les Bernstein <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > I agree with Ken's views, save for this statement: > > > > *The cards are stacked in favor of those with privilege... *No, the cards > are stacked *against *those unfairly denied opportunity and dignity. The > difference is both non-trivial and crucial. > > Les > > On 6/9/2023 4:12 PM, Ken Grant wrote: > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening > attachments or clicking on links. *** > > Thank you Alexandria for expressing what it means to have systemic > obstacles and barriers to success throughout our society. Folks got upset > when the Black Lives Matter movement took off because they were wondering > "don't White Lives Matter as well". Anyone who felt this way misunderstoo= d > the entire enterprise. Nobody ever claimed that white lives don't matter, > or matter more, or matter less. A good friend suggested that, if the Blac= k > Lives Matter movement had printed signs that read "Black Lives Matter Too= ". > While I understood his point and that I can see how this might have helpe= d > white male americans feel better, this too misses the point. Centuries of > inequities do not get wiped away in an instant. Declaring racism over is = a > monstrous error. Some scientists rise to the top of their fields by worki= ng > very very hard. But as the cartoon displayed, not all children, > adolescents, or teens have the same opportunities. The cards are stacked = in > favor of those with privilege, and your comment that recognizing this fac= t > might make us more willing and able to consider these systemic obstacles. > > > > On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:15=E2=80=AFAM Bernstein,Leslie <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx= .edu> > wrote: > > I disagree. I think I understand the points and the reality quite well. > > > > Les > ------------------------------ > > *From:* "Lesicko, Alexandria" <Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx> > *Date:* Thu, Jun 8, 2023, 5:06 PM > *To:* "Bernstein,Leslie" <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx>, AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > *Subject:* Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening > attachments or clicking on links. *** > > I think it's important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the > "reference level." The societal inequities that exist are not because I > and other "white guys" (i.e., the "Richards" in the cartoon) were given > some *undeserved* privilege but, rather, because some minorities and > cultures (i.e., the Paula's in the cartoon) have been unfairly denied *th= eir > *due. I think it very much matters where one perceives the unfairness to > be. > > > > *I think you are missing the main point of the cartoons that have been > shared here. They are meant to illustrate the point that our gender, > racial, etc. identities and economic realities shape our experiences and > opportunities in science and in the world. This benefits some people and > works against others. The =E2=80=9Cperceived unfairness=E2=80=9D isn=E2= =80=99t on one side of the > coin or the other, it is all a product of the same system.* > > > > I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to be misguided folly I > will not apologize for what I have accomplished and for what I have. It > was not handed to me. For those who still don't understand, I'll say it > again. The social injustice lies in the fact that the less fortunate > (often minority cultures and ethnicities) have been denied the opportunit= y > and dignity they deserve as human beings. That is where we must focus ou= r > efforts for change. > > > > *I think this is also a misunderstanding - I don=E2=80=99t think that the= concept > of privilege invokes self-loathing. Nobody is asking you to apologize and > hate yourself for whatever privileges you may have. Further, nobody is > saying that you have not worked hard for your accomplishments. My > understanding of acknowledging privilege is that it is about humility > rather than self-loathing. For example, understanding that my path in lif= e > and in my career may have looked different and involved more obstacles if= I > were a person of color, queer, disabled, etc. You can still be proud of > your accomplishments and your hard work while acknowledging this. I also > don=E2=80=99t think acknowledging privilege is the end goal in these disc= ussions or > an exercise unto itself, but a necessary step in the process of beginning > to tackle the social injustices that you mention above. If we cannot firs= t > admit that these factors play a role in our trajectories, then it is hard > to get any further in enacting change - we are blind to what we are tryin= g > to tackle.* > > > > It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any > hierarchy, there are biases that come into play. That's because they are > all human endeavors. Matters of degree count! In our field of auditory > science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have > asserted that discriminatory factors *must *be at play to a *substantial > degree*. I think that is patently false and my observations across > decades support that belief. > > > > *You cannot say that because you have not experienced or witnessed > discrimination in this field that it does not exist. All you can say is > that you have not experienced or witnessed it. Other people on this threa= d > are telling you that their experiences have been different (and citing > literature that points to the existence of bias and discrimination at > large). Again, it is important to listen to and acknowledge the experienc= es > of other people if we want to address social injustice. People from > different demographic backgrounds can have radically different experience= s > of the same community. You can simultaneously take pride in your field an= d > your community and want to make it better.* > > > > Some of you have acted as "scientists" drawing conclusions on the basis o= f > essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personally, must ha= ve > a myopic view because you assume that I'm just another fairly successful > old white guy. Shame on you. You know nothing of my history and that of > my family. You commit the genetic fallacy, that of evaluating an idea on > the basis of *who *generated the idea, rather than on the merits of the > idea, *per se*. In so doing, you commit the very sin that you decry so > vociferously in self-righteous fashion! > > > > *It seems that most people are replying directly to what you said, > point-by-point, not assuming that you must be myopic because you are, as > you describe, a =E2=80=9Cfairly successful old white guy=E2=80=9D. **=F0= =9F=98=8A * > > > > I suggest that you read this excellent work > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/6968= 56/woke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/__;!!Cn_UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiHVy_= INKv0r3PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-NjlpyLdKM4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSxx7W= Gig$> > by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter. > > > > This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific > results. I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to that > topic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List. > > > > *I don=E2=80=99t think that these topics are inappropriate and are actual= ly very > important and beneficial to discuss.* > > > > Les > > > > > > *From: *AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Les Bernstein <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx= > > *Date: *Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:10 AM > *To: *AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Subject: *[External] Re: arXiv web of trust > > I think it's important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the > "reference level." The societal inequities that exist are not because I > and other "white guys" (i.e., the "Richards" in the cartoon) were given > some *undeserved* privilege but, rather, because some minorities and > cultures (i.e., the Paula's in the cartoon) have been unfairly denied *th= eir > *due. I think it very much matters where one perceives the unfairness to > be. > > I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to be misguided folly I > will not apologize for what I have accomplished and for what I have. It > was not handed to me. For those who still don't understand, I'll say it > again. The social injustice lies in the fact that the less fortunate > (often minority cultures and ethnicities) have been denied the opportunit= y > and dignity they deserve as human beings. That is where we must focus ou= r > efforts for change. > > It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any > hierarchy, there are biases that come into play. That's because they are > all human endeavors. Matters of degree count! In our field of auditory > science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have > asserted that discriminatory factors *must *be at play to a *substantial > degree*. I think that is patently false and my observations across > decades support that belief. > > Some of you have acted as "scientists" drawing conclusions on the basis o= f > essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personally, must ha= ve > a myopic view because you assume that I'm just another fairly successful > old white guy. Shame on you. You know nothing of my history and that of > my family. You commit the genetic fallacy, that of evaluating an idea on > the basis of *who *generated the idea, rather than on the merits of the > idea, *per se*. In so doing, you commit the very sin that you decry so > vociferously in self-righteous fashion! > > I suggest that you read this excellent work > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/6968= 56/woke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/__;!!Cn_UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiHVy_= INKv0r3PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-NjlpyLdKM4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSxx7W= Gig$> > by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter. > > This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific > results. I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to that > topic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List. > > Les > > On 6/4/2023 9:24 PM, Svirsky, Mario wrote: > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening > attachments or clicking on links. *** > > I have a small contribution to the very interesting conversation between > Matt Winn and Les Bernstein. > > > > I recommend those of you who are also interested in this conversation > watch =E2=80=9CPicture a Scientist=E2=80=9D, which is on Netflix in the U= .S. until June 12. > It is a fascinating description of some of the obstacles faced by women i= n > general and black women in particular, in academia. > > > > I agree with Les that, ideally, status as a researcher should be earned b= y > a person=E2=80=99s contributions to their field. The problem is that in t= he real > world women get fewer resources and less recognition than men given the > same intellect and productivity. Ditto for minorities. =E2=80=9CPicture a > Scientist=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t even get into the issues of class, nat= ionality, or able > bodiedness, which are also important. > > > > Or instead of watching Picture a Scientist (which, after all, will take > you 103 minutes), you could invest just two minutes in reading the cartoo= n > below. About the concept of having things handed to you on a plate (or > =E2=80=9Cbeing born on third base and thinking you hit a triple=E2=80=9D,= a quote > attributed to Barry Switzer, 1986). > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > *Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > Mario A. Svirsky, Ph.D. > > Noel L. Cohen Professor of Hearing Science, > > Professor of Otolaryngology (School of Medicine) and Neural Science > > Vice-Chairman for Research > > Department of Otolaryngology > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > *Address:* > > Dept. of Otolaryngology *Phone *(direct)*:* > 212-263-7217 > > NYU Langone Medical Center *Fax:* > 212-263-7604 or 212-263-8257 > > 550 First Ave., > NBV-5E5 > > New York, NY 10016 > > > > Pronouns: he, him, his > > > > *CONFIDENTIAL - NYU SCHOOL OF MEDICINE SENSITIVE DOCUMENT* > > > > =E2=80=9CThis email message, including any attachments, is for the sole u= se of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, > confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any > unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If y= ou > have received this email in error please notify the sender by return emai= l > and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check > this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The > organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus > transmitted by this email.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > -- > > *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. | *Professor Emeritus > > Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of > Medicine > 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 > Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > -- > > *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. | *Professor Emeritus > > Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of > Medicine > 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 > Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > -- > > *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. | *Professor Emeritus > > Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of > Medicine > 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 > Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > --00000000000055df1205fdf78198 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Alex<div> </div><div>I think we can all agree that r= educing=C2=A0or even eliminating unfairness is a good thing to strive for, = but the problem is how to go about achieving it.=C2=A0 The danger is thinki= ng that one can redress historic harms by counterbalancing with current dep= rivations. Not only has that never worked, and has always been actively cou= nterproductive, but it couldn't even conceivably work in principle.</di= v><div> </div><div>The problem is that every human interaction involves = countless needs and wants, such that if we were to try to balance external = outcomes like (say) money, we are not doing anything towards achieving fair= ness. People=C2=A0value things like time, physical=C2=A0well being, risk, f= ree-time and sorts of things differently, along with monetary compensation.= </div><div> </div><div>Obviously, there are things that, with hindsight,= were unfair in the past. But that doesn't mean that we could have fixe= d it even if we were to go back to that past with present knowledge and the= power of redress. The result of such meddling would inevitably either be (= a) some other unfairness or (b) a worse bargain for everyone involved at th= e time the bargain was made. It would be a Faustian game.</div><div> </d= iv><div>How much more difficult is it to imagine that we can now, in the pr= esent, do things that would re-balance things involving other people who ha= ve long since passed without causing worse imbalance (or deficiencies) for = those yet to come?=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div> </div><div>I feel that the cor= rect way to go about things is to always maximize efficiencies in the prese= nt, while acknowledging mistakes made by past peoples as valuable lessons t= o guide our way. We simply can't fix historical unfairness with unfairn= ess today. The only way forward is with fairness. What we can learn from th= e past is that harms=C2=A0of unfairness stick=C2=A0around, and to the exten= t that we can do better, we should. But that will never stop future peoples= from looking back and (rightfully or wrongfully) identifying what they, fr= om their future perspective, would consider to be unfair either then or now= .</div><div> </div><div>I realize, of course, that there is much more at= play in all of this, and it's never that simple. It certainly i= s not my place to decide for others (past, present or future), what is or i= s not fair. But all too often we risk becoming the pawns of others who stir= the flames of righteous indignation in us for their own benefit. The cycle= stops when we choose to stop the cycle, not when accounts are settled. Bec= ause the accounts will never truly be settled as long as human beings with = their wonderfully irrational passions are involved.=C2=A0</div><div> </d= iv><div>We shouldn't smother our humanity in a vain=C2=A0attempt to sat= isfy the machine.</div><div> </div><div>Douglas Scott</div><div> </di= v></div> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr= ">On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 at 18:02, Lesicko, Alexandria <<a href=3D"mailto:A= lexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx">Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= penn.edu</a>> wrote: </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D= "margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le= ft:1ex"><div class=3D"msg-6721795108728458903"> <div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"> <div class=3D"m_-6721795108728458903WordSection1"> Hi Doug,</u= > =C2=A0<= /span> Thanks for your reply= =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m trying to understand what you are saying here, but n= ot sure I am understanding you correctly. I don=E2=80=99t think I am saying= that we should increase prejudice under any justification, noble or not. I think when people talk about reducing bias they are arguin= g for the minimization of prejudice =E2=80=93 reducing the likelihood that = people will be treated unfairly based on demographic factors. I think the g= oal is to stop perpetuating historic harms, and I don=E2=80=99t think that the act of attempting to redress them means= that we are guaranteed to perpetuate them. I think sometimes people put fo= rth an argument for =E2=80=9Ccolor blindness=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 that we sho= uldn=E2=80=99t even acknowledge that people differ in their race, etc., and that doing so is in and of itself discriminatory. But I would argue th= at this just further blinds us to instances when people are being discrimin= ated against based on these factors. I=E2=80=99m not sure if that=E2=80=99s= what you=E2=80=99re arguing for here or not. I do think minimization of harm caused by bias and prejudice is a desirable outcome, = both as an end to itself and because diversity makes science better and mor= e creative. =C2=A0<= /span> Best,</= span> Alex</s= pan> =C2=A0<= /span> <div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-= top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"> From: Douglas Scott <<a = href=3D"mailto:jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx= mail.com</a>> Date: Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 5:13 PM To: Lesicko, Alexandria <<a href=3D"mailto:Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= nmedicine.upenn.edu" target=3D"_blank">Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= n.edu</a>> Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AU= DITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> Subject: Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust<= /p> </div> <div> Hi Alex= <div> =C2=A0<= /span> </div> <div> Thanks for the valuab= le perspective. </div> <div> =C2=A0<= /span> </div> <div> I understand that pos= ition, but I still think it is fundamentally misguided.</span= > </div> <div> =C2=A0<= /span> </div> <div> Prejudice, however no= ble the justification, affects individuals and perpetuates historic harms, = even in tge act of attempting to redress them. </div> <div> =C2=A0<= /span> </div> <div> It's just playing= the same old game, in the end, just with different players.<= /span> </div> <div> =C2=A0<= /span> </div> <div> The big fallacy at th= e root of it all is the idea thag eqaulity of outcome is a desirable outcom= e, the absence if which is an evil that needs to be exorcised.</u= > </div> <div> =C2=A0<= /span> </div> <div> I'd say the oppos= ite. I want to make choices and have those choices result in different outc= omes, even if a subset of those outcomes could be condidered dettimental to= me, at present or with hindsight. </div> <div> =C2=A0<= /span> </div> <div> The alternative is th= e denial of my humanity. </div> <div> =C2=A0<= /span> </div> <div> Doug</s= pan> </div> </div> =C2=A0<= /span> <div> <div> On Sun, Jun 11, 2023,= 16:35 Lesicko, Alexandria, <<a href=3D"mailto:Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= dicine.upenn.edu" target=3D"_blank">Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= du</a>> wrote: </div> <blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b= order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4= .8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div> <div> Hi Doug,</u= > =C2=A0<= /span> Thanks for your email= =E2=80=93 there are at least two separate but overlapping concepts being d= iscussed here. One is systemic bias, a reflection of unfair treatment at the institutional level toward individuals of marginalized gr= oups. In academia, we see examples of this in gender and race gaps in fundi= ng, faculty positions, citations, etc. There is also implicit bias, which r= eflects unfairness directed by someone from a privileged group toward an individual from a marginalized group. We= cannot say that just because someone is from a given background they have = absolutely faced implicit bias or have perpetuated it, and I don=E2=80=99t = think anyone is trying to claim that here. But the academic system is wrought with systemic bias, and we have a lot o= f research and data to support this (see some of the citations others have = posted here). The point of the conversation isn=E2=80=99t to victimize indi= viduals based on their minority status or demonize individuals based on their privilege, the point is to acknowledge= that this bias exists to make the academic system fairer. Part of that sta= rts with acknowledging in what ways we are part of privileged groups with t= he express goal of reducing the likelihood that we will perpetuate the harm of implicit bias. I think a co= mmon fallacy in these conversations is that we are reducing the success of = those from privileged groups to their demographics (or vice versa). Rather,= we are suggesting, based on our data that reflects systemic bias, that individuals from privileged groups = are more likely to benefit from their demographic backgrounds and that indi= viduals from marginalized groups are more likely to suffer. This is why ind= ividual examples become moot in this conversation =E2=80=93 one example of a minority who has been treated= fairly and one example of a privileged person who has not does not erase t= he existence of systemic bias, which is by definition an institutional prob= lem. I hope this clears things up! =C2=A0<= /span> Best,</= span> Alex</s= pan> =C2=A0<= /span> <div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-= top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"> From: Douglas Scott <<a = href=3D"mailto:jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx= mail.com</a>> Date: Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 3:51 PM To: Lesicko, Alexandria <<a href=3D"mailto:Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= nmedicine.upenn.edu" target=3D"_blank">Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= n.edu</a>> Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AU= DITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> Subject: Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust </div> <div> There is no valid inf= erence from someone's gender, race or cultural background to whether th= ey have been treated fairly. <div> =C2=A0<= /span> </div> <div> We can talk probaliti= es, sure. But as a younger academic not from America who hasn't "m= ade it" I know if a lot example of people of all sort being unfairly advantaged and disadvantaged. </div> <div> =C2=A0<= /span> </div> <div> Prejuduce=C2=A0</u= > </div> </div> =C2=A0<= /span> <div> <div> On Sun, Jun 11, 2023,= 00:14 Lesicko, Alexandria, <<a href=3D"mailto:Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= dicine.upenn.edu" target=3D"_blank">Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= du</a>> wrote: </div> <blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b= order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i= n 5pt 4.8pt"> <div> <div> Using a reference as a standard in this case only makes s= ense if you assume adequate resources. If we do not have enough money to pay both Fred and John at market value, what do we do? There is a= limited amount of scientific funding, a limited number of faculty jobs, et= c. Historically, people from certain demographic backgrounds have largely b= een the recipients of this funding and have populated these positions. If people who look like Fred are repea= tedly chosen to get grants and to fill faculty slots, while people who look= like John are not, can we just throw our hands in the air and say =E2=80= =9Cwell, Fred is being treated fairly=E2=80=9D? No, Fred is benefitting from the privileges of his demographic background whil= e John is not. So yes, I do understand the difference between two values an= d the case when one is a reference (I have, after all, been a trainee in th= is field for over 10 years!), but I question the validity of using a reference here at all. =C2=A0<sp= an style=3D"font-size:11pt"> =C2=A0</u= > I didn=E2=80=99t make your point, you negated it. You sta= ted that you and =E2=80=9Cother white guys=E2=80=9D were not given some und= eserved privilege and that nothing was handed to you, implying that you deserve the privileg= e you have and that therefore privilege can somehow be earned. Now you sugg= est you have no privilege at all. I have maintained throughout this convers= ation that privilege can reflect factors outside of our control, such as our race and gender, and is undese= rved. Suggesting you have no privilege implies that people are, in fact, no= t treated differently based on these demographic factors. If your life woul= d have looked any different by altering any one of these factors, for example if you were born a black man or a wh= ite woman, then you have privilege.<u= > =C2=A0</u= > You have decided that injustice does not exist in our fie= ld basely solely and entirely on your own lived experience. Why is your experience the null hypothesis? How is that scientific? Others= have supported their arguments with references and citations, you have not= contributed anything other than your own perspective, which is the perspec= tive of, in your words, =E2=80=9Ca fairly successful old white guy.=E2=80=9D<u= > =C2=A0</u= > Allyship is not about =E2=80=9Ctaking sides=E2=80=9D, it = is about listening to, supporting, and advocating for people from different backgrounds than your own. There=E2=80=99s been a great show of that on th= is thread and that is a positive product of this conversation. I don=E2=80= =99t think acknowledging that is stoking polarization. =C2=A0<= /span> =C2=A0<= /span> <div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-= top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"> From: Les Bernstein <<a = href=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</= a>> Date: Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 2:51 PM To: Lesicko, Alexandria <<a href=3D"mailto:Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= nmedicine.upenn.edu" target=3D"_blank">Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= n.edu</a>>, <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= S.MCGILL.CA</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_= blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> Subject: Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust </div> <div> It is most unfortunate that you do not understand the distinctions between= a simple difference between two values and the case when one is a reference.=C2=A0 If Fred earns market value for his work and= John does not, it is not the case that Fred is privileged.=C2=A0 Fred and = others should work to ensure that John is paid market value as well.=C2=A0 = If you still fail or refuse to grasp the difference, then I cannot help you. Indeed, the use of "privileged" implies it is undeserved.=C2=A0 T= hank you for making my point!=C2=A0 I do not have privilege.=C2=A0 Rather, = I believe I have been treated fairly.=C2=A0 The sad truth is that others ha= ve not been treated fairly and are not being treated fairly.=C2=A0 I never suggested that such societal inequities and injustices are irrelev= ant simply because some do not face them.=C2=A0 That's your invention.= =C2=A0 I did say, that, in our field, I do not think such injustices are su= bstantive.=C2=A0 It is not for me to acceded to your insistence that I prove the null hypothesis.=C2=A0 It is, rather, incumben= t upon you to demonstrate that, in our field, such injustice exists in subs= tantive fashion. This is not about allies or "sides."=C2=A0 Your thinking reflects= the corruption wrought by polarization.=C2=A0 I do not deny the societal i= lls identified.=C2=A0 I simply have a different view of how they arose and = persist.=C2=A0 That they should be addressed is undeniable, as I see it.=C2=A0 Still, this is the Auditory List.=C2=A0 I limited my comme= nts regarding the existence of injustices (or lack thereof), to our field.<= br> On 6/10/2023 12:50 PM, Lesicko, Alexandria wrote: </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"> <div> *** Attention: This is an external= email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. *= ** </div> <div> There is no difference. By analogy: =E2=80=9Cit is ok to say that 3 is 5= less than 8 but we mustn=E2=80=99t suggest that 8 is 5 more than 3.=E2=80= =9D No matter what phrasing of it makes you feel comfortable, you are refer= ring to the same gap of 5, the same inequity in access to resources, support, etc.= There is no such thing as deserved privilege. It would be very weird to say, =E2=80=9CI deserv= ed to be born white=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI deserved to be born a man.=E2=80= =9D Privilege can stem from circumstances outside of our control. Regardles= s, those of us who were born with it still benefit from it. That does not mean, for example, that I must hate myself to atone for it, nor d= oes it mean that everything I have accomplished in my life is a direct caus= e of my whiteness and must be reduced to this factor. But it does mean that= I very likely had an easier time in my life and my career than I would have had I been born otherwise. I th= ink recognizing that is the first step in having more supportive and less h= armful interactions with the people around me who come from different backg= rounds with different lived experiences.=C2=A0</sp= an> =C2=A0 To those suggesting that these issues are irrelevant to them because the= y have succeeded in the face of obstacles, you are again missing the point.= Your personal experience is not universal, and one example of success does not negate the fact that others suffer the consequences of= bias and discrimination. If you work in science, you are part of an intern= ational community made up of people from diverse backgrounds, meaning these= issues are relevant to you and the manner in which you engage with other scientists. Further, by saying t= hat these issues are non-existent, trivial, or irrelevant, you are sending = a message to anyone in your field who may experience bias or discrimination= that they cannot come to you for support and allyship, because you have already minimized or devalued their= experiences. Thank you to Matt, Mario, David, Ken, and everyone else on th= is thread who have demonstrated allyship - one benefit of having these conv= ersations out in the open is that members of the community know who they can turn to in the face of such iss= ues.=C2=A0 =C2=A0<= /span> =C2=A0<= /span> <div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-= top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"> From: AUDITORY - Research i= n Auditory Perception <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank"><AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LISTS.MCGILL.CA></a> on behalf of Vani Rajendran <a href=3D"mailto:vani.g.rajendran@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank"><vani.g.= rajendran@xxxxxxxx></a> Date: Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:37 AM To: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AU= DITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank"><AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LISTS.MCGILL.CA></a> Subject: Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust </div> <div> <div> I'm sorry if I&#= 39;m being thick but what exactly is the difference? </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> If the cards are bei= ng stacked against rather than in favor... ok... but who benefits from the = stacking? Who decides the stacking?<u= > </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> Vani </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> <div> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023, = 22:11 Les Bernstein <<a href=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_b= lank">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote: </div> <blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b= order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i= n 5pt 4.8pt"> <div> <div> I agree with Ken's views, save for this statement: The cards are stacked in favor of those with privilege... No, the cards are stacked against those unfairly denied o= pportunity and dignity.=C2=A0 The difference is both non-trivial and crucia= l. Les On 6/9/2023 4:12 PM, Ken Grant wrote: </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"> <div> *** Attention: This is an external= email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. *= ** </div> <div> <div> <div> Thank you Alexandria = for expressing what it means to have systemic obstacles and barriers to suc= cess throughout our society. Folks=C2=A0got upset when the Black Lives Matter movement took off because they were wondering &quot= ;don't White Lives Matter as well". Anyone who felt this=C2=A0way = misunderstood the entire enterprise. Nobody ever claimed that white lives d= on't=C2=A0matter, or matter more, or matter less. A good friend suggested that, if the Black Lives Matter movement had printed sign= s that read "Black Lives Matter Too". While I understood his poin= t and that I can see how this might have helped white male americans feel b= etter, this too misses the point. Centuries of inequities do not get wiped away in an instant. Declaring racism over i= s a monstrous=C2=A0error. Some scientists rise to the top of their fields b= y working very very hard. But as the cartoon displayed, not all children, a= dolescents, or teens have the same opportunities. The cards are stacked in favor of those with privilege,=C2=A0and your comm= ent that recognizing this fact might make us more willing and able to consi= der these systemic obstacles.<= u> </div> </div> =C2=A0<= /span> <div> <div> On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 a= t 12:15=E2=80=AFAM Bernstein,Leslie <<a href=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx= du" target=3D"_blank">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:</spa= n> </div> <blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b= order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i= n 5pt 4.8pt"> <div> <div> <div> I disagree.=C2=A0 I t= hink I understand the points and the reality quite well. <div> =C2=A0<= /span> </div> <div> Les </div> </div> <div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span= style=3D"font-size:11pt"> <hr size=3D"0" width=3D"22%" align=3D"center"> </div> From: "Lesicko, A= lexandria" <<a href=3D"mailto:Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx= .edu" target=3D"_blank">Alexandria.Lesicko@xxxxxxxx</a>><b= r> Date: Thu, Jun 8, 2023, 5:06 PM To: "Bernstein,Leslie" <<a href=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx= hc.edu" target=3D"_blank">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>>, <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= S.MCGILL.CA</a> Subject: Re: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust<= /p> <div> <div> *** Attention: This is an external= email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. *= ** </div> <div> <div> I think it's important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the &qu= ot;reference level."=C2=A0 The societal inequities that exist are not = because I and other "white guys" (i.e., the "Richards" = in the cartoon) were given some undeserved privilege but, rather, because some minorit= ies and cultures (i.e., the Paula's in the cartoon) have been unfairly = denied their due.=C2=A0 I think it very much matters where one perce= ives the unfairness to be. =C2=A0 I think you are missing the main point of the cartoons that have been= shared here. They are meant to illustrate the point that our gender, racia= l, etc. identities and economic realities shape our experiences and opportu= nities in science and in the world. This benefits some people and works against others. The =E2=80=9Cperceived= unfairness=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t on one side of the coin or the other, it= is all a product of the same system. =C2=A0 I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to be misguide= d folly=C2=A0 I will not apologize for what I have accomplished and for wha= t I have.=C2=A0 It was not handed to me.=C2=A0 For those who still don'= t understand, I'll say it again.=C2=A0 The social injustice lies in the fact that the less fortunate (often minority cultures and ethnicities)= have been denied the opportunity and dignity they deserve as human beings.= =C2=A0 That is where we must focus our efforts for change.</p= > =C2=A0 I think this is also a misunderstanding - I don=E2=80=99t think that = the concept of privilege invokes self-loathing. Nobody is asking you to apo= logize and hate yourself for whatever privileges you may have. Further, nob= ody is saying that you have not worked hard for your accomplishments. My understanding of acknowledging privilege is t= hat it is about humility rather than self-loathing. For example, understand= ing that my path in life and in my career may have looked different and inv= olved more obstacles if I were a person of color, queer, disabled, etc. You can still be proud of your acco= mplishments and your hard work while acknowledging this. I also don=E2=80= =99t think acknowledging privilege is the end goal in these discussions or = an exercise unto itself, but a necessary step in the process of beginning to tackle the social injustices that you menti= on above. If we cannot first admit that these factors play a role in our tr= ajectories, then it is hard to get any further in enacting change - we are = blind to what we are trying to tackle. =C2=A0 It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any = hierarchy, there are biases that come into play.=C2=A0 That's because t= hey are all human endeavors.=C2=A0 Matters of degree count!=C2=A0 In our fi= eld of auditory science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have asserted that discriminatory factors <= i>must be at play to a substantial degree. I think that is p= atently false and my observations across decades support that belief.</u= > =C2=A0 You cannot say that because you have not experienced or witnessed dis= crimination in this field that it does not exist. All you can say is that y= ou have not experienced or witnessed it. Other people on this thread are te= lling you that their experiences have been different (and citing literature that points to the existence of= bias and discrimination at large). Again, it is important to listen to and= acknowledge the experiences of other people if we want to address social i= njustice. People from different demographic backgrounds can have radically different experiences of the sa= me community. You can simultaneously take pride in your field and your comm= unity and want to make it better. =C2=A0 Some of you have acted as "scientists" drawing conclusions on = the basis of essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personal= ly, must have a myopic view because you assume that I'm just another fa= irly successful old white guy.=C2=A0 Shame on you.=C2=A0 You know nothing of my history and that of my family.=C2=A0 You commit the= genetic fallacy, that of evaluating an idea on the basis of who generated the idea, rather than on the merits of the idea= , per se.=C2=A0 In so doing, you commit the very sin that you decry = so vociferously in self-righteous fashion! =C2=A0 It seems that most people are replying directly to what you said, poi= nt-by-point, not assuming that you must be myopic because you are, as you d= escribe, a =E2=80=9Cfairly successful old white guy=E2=80=9D. =F0=9F=98= =8A =C2=A0 I suggest that you read <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/ww= w.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/696856/woke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/__;!!Cn= _UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiHVy_INKv0r3PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-NjlpyLdKM= 4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSxx7WGig$" target=3D"_blank"> this excellent work</a> by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter.<u= > =C2=A0 This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific re= sults.=C2=A0 I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to tha= t topic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List.<= /u> =C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t think that these topics are inappropriate and are act= ually very important and beneficial to discuss. =C2=A0 Les =C2=A0<= /span> =C2=A0<= /span> <div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-= top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"> From: AUDITORY - Research i= n Auditory Perception <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" targe= t=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> on behalf of Les Bernstein &l= t;<a href=3D"mailto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx= EDU</a>> Date: Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:10 AM To: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AU= DITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> Subject: [External] Re: arXiv web of trust </div> <div> I think it's important to establish the DC-level, sea-level, the &quot= ;reference level."=C2=A0 The societal inequities that exist are not because I and other "white guys" (i.e., the "Richards&q= uot; in the cartoon) were given some undeserved privilege but, rather, because some minorit= ies and cultures (i.e., the Paula's in the cartoon) have been unfairly = denied their due.=C2=A0 I think it very much matters where one perce= ives the unfairness to be. I find the self-loathing concept of "privilege" to be misguided f= olly=C2=A0 I will not apologize for what I have accomplished and for what I= have.=C2=A0 It was not handed to me.=C2=A0 For those who still don't u= nderstand, I'll say it again.=C2=A0 The social injustice lies in the fact that the less fortunate (often minority cultures and ethnicities) hav= e been denied the opportunity and dignity they deserve as human beings.=C2= =A0 That is where we must focus our efforts for change. It is trivially true to say that, in any field, in any vocation, in any hie= rarchy, there are biases that come into play.=C2=A0 That's because they= are all human endeavors.=C2=A0 Matters of degree count!=C2=A0 In our field= of auditory science-- and this is after all the Auditory List-- others here have asserted that discriminatory factors must </= i>be at play to a substantial degree. I think that is patently false and my obs= ervations across decades support that belief. Some of you have acted as "scientists" drawing conclusions on the= basis of essentially no evidence when you have implied that I, personally,= must have a myopic view because you assume that I'm just another fairl= y successful old white guy.=C2=A0 Shame on you.=C2=A0 You know nothing of my history and that of my family.=C2=A0 You commit the gen= etic fallacy, that of evaluating an idea on the basis of who generated the idea, rather than on the merits of the idea= , per se.=C2=A0 In so doing, you commit the very sin that you decry = so vociferously in self-righteous fashion! I suggest that you read <a href=3D"ht= tps://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/696856/wo= ke-racism-by-john-mcwhorter/__;!!Cn_UX_p3!mth3_BPlc7TsaCwG6Fez_ufiHVy_INKv0= r3PU3I8KlFF88Mx_Qloe66OaO-NjlpyLdKM4zoYEz0NpSlG0tRioJBgeweVdH8f3vSxx7WGig$"= target=3D"_blank">this excellent work</a> by the brilliant linguist, John McWhorter. This began as a discussion of open-access dissemination of scientific resul= ts.=C2=A0 I hope, if this thread continues at all, it will return to that t= opic, a topic that is most appropriate for the Auditory List. Les On 6/4/2023 9:24 PM, Svirsky, Mario wrote: </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"> <div> *** Attention: This is an external= email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. *= ** </div> <div> I have a small contri= bution to the very interesting conversation between Matt Winn and Les Berns= tein. =C2=A0<= /span> I recommend those of = you who are also interested in this conversation watch =E2=80=9CPicture a S= cientist=E2=80=9D, which is on Netflix in the U.S. until June 12. It is a fascinating description of some of the obstacles faced by women in= general and black women in particular, in academia.</= p> =C2=A0<= /span> I agree with Les that= , ideally, status as a researcher should be earned by a person=E2=80=99s co= ntributions to their field. The problem is that in the real world women get fewer resources and less recognition than men given the sa= me intellect and productivity. Ditto for minorities. =E2=80=9CPicture a Sci= entist=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t even get into the issues of class, national= ity, or able bodiedness, which are also important. =C2=A0<= /span> Or instead of watchin= g Picture a Scientist (which, after all, will take you 103 minutes), you co= uld invest just two minutes in reading the cartoon below. About the concept of having things handed to you on a plate (or =E2= =80=9Cbeing born on third base and thinking you hit a triple=E2=80=9D, a qu= ote attributed to Barry Switzer, 1986). =C2=A0<= /span> Error! Filename no= t specified.= Error! Filename no= t specified.Error! Filename not specified. =C2=A0<= /span> Error! Filename no= t specified.= =C2=A0<= /span> Mario A. Svirsky, Ph.D.<= /span> N= oel L. Cohen Professor of Hearing Science, P= rofessor of Otolaryngology (School of Medicine) and Neural Science<s= pan style=3D"font-size:11pt"> V= ice-Chairman for Research</= u> D= epartment of Otolaryngology= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Error! Filename not specified. = Address: Dep= t. of Otolaryngology=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Phone=C2=A0(direct):=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 212-263-7217 NYU= =C2=A0Langone Medical Center=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Fax:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 212-263-7604 or 212-263-8257 550= First Ave., NBV-5E5=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= New= York, NY 10016<= /p> = =C2=A0 Pro= nouns: he, him, his</sp= an> =C2=A0 CONFIDENTIAL - NYU SCHOOL OF = MEDICINE SENSITIVE DOCUMENT</u= > =C2=A0 = =E2=80=9CThis email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use= of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprieta= ry, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distrib= ution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify= the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, t= he recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts = no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.= =E2=80=9D =C2=A0<= /span> </div> </blockquote> =C2=A0 <div> -- <div> <div> Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. | Prof= essor Emeritus</= p> <div> <div> <div> <div> Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School = of Medicine 263 Farm= ington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 Office: = 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 Error! Filename not specified.= </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </blockquote> =C2=A0 <div> -- <div> <div> Leslie R. Bernstei= n, Ph.D. | Professor Emeritus<= /span> <div> <div> <div> <div> Depts. of Neuroscienc= e and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of Medicine 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 Error! Filename not specified. </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> =C2=A0 <div> -- <div> <div> Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. | Prof= essor Emeritus</= p> <div> <div> <div> <div> Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School = of Medicine 263 Farm= ington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 Office: = 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 Error! Filename not specified.= </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div></blockquote></div> --00000000000055df1205fdf78198--

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