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Re: exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free "Article Request" list

I see this as a late echo of what has happened to the music industry, newspapers, magazines, radio and soon television. I live in the world of minutes, and so too do the students in my classes. When I am blocked from one site, or one way of getting some information, I go to source 2, 3, or 4. Significant advances in various fields used to have to wait for annual conferences or lengthy publication schedules; I live in a world where this is gone, or disappearing very quickly.

In the music industry, those who embraced the idea of decentralized decisions, and very inexpensive access are those who are still standing.

An example. Someone on this list makes a reference to some interesting information. I follow the link and discover, 35 seconds later, that it will be $45 for me to read this information. I pass it up. Somewhere, someone else will have rephrased it and put it into a source which is free. The students in my classes do the same thing.

The "journal" industry will continue to protect itself, as did the music industry. Perhaps with the same results.

There are numerous members of this list who have helped me by providing articles and explanations, and several who self-publish on their own websites. Perhaps the AUDITORY community is looking for its own version of YouTube?

I do not include my surname in my sig for reasons which may be far too arcane for the scientific mind.


PS The psycholinguistic choice of the word "exploit" probably needs to be restricted to one of its less politicized meanings. I like the definition: a striking or notable deed; feat; spirited or heroic act: the exploitsof Alexander the Great; my great adventures and exploits in the land of AUDITORY.

But there again, Canada has formerly been known as a very polite nation. Perhaps the address says it all.

On 2012, Aug 6, at 11:07 AM, Iftikhar Nizami wrote:

With regard to the very recent comments by Steve Beet -
1) "Legitimate" fees to the journals? First of all, the journals get all of their material at the expense of the taxpayers and/or the authors. Secondly, the fees demanded by journals for viewing and/or download of online papers - and for institutional print subscriptions, for that matter - have become so outrageous that an entire movement for fee-free publication has taken hold (see recent news articles in Science or in Nature). The publication houses - or their clients such as IEEE, for example - are in no danger of going bankrupt anytime soon.
2) "Days" is indeed far too long to wait for a relevant paper when a deadline is looming and some significant point has to be supported.  Not everyone has the luxury of time.
3) I note that Steve Beet has an IEEE.org email address, which suggests a connection to that organization, which has its own line of journals. - Lance Nizami PhD, Palo Alto, California

From: Steve Beet <steve.beet@xxxxxxxx>
To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Mon, August 6, 2012 7:23:12 AM
Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free "Article Request" list

I don't think this needs to be explicitly set down in the rules of the list. However, I do suspect that this, and most similar lists, take it as read that members will use a little common sense in deciding when it is appropriate to make a request to the whole list. This applies to all postings, not just requests for reprints.

I too would encourage people to ask for hard-to-find and seminal papers in this way. In fact I would go further and encourage anyone who comes across such papers to make them available to the whole list (copyright permitting) once they've been found.

However, recently (on this list) the requests for papers HAVE been getting a little out of hand, and I've had the distinct impression that some of the requests have been made out of simple laziness, and/or unwillingness to pay legitimate fees to the journals who rely on such payments to keep their services going.

I don't think "days" is too long to wait for a paper which probably took many months to be written and published in the first place!

Steve Beet

On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 05:49:11 -0700
Marcelo Caetano <gaiolouvo-auditory@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Dear Bruno and list,
> my point exactly. I don't agree that article requests on the list can be characterized as abuse. I actually think that it's rather arbitrary to do so given that, currently, there are no guidelines on http://www.auditory.org/ (or anywhere else that I'm aware of). Consequently, the way the members use the list currently dictates how the list is used. Maybe we should all discuss and agree on guidelines for all the members to follow rather than give our personal opinions?
> In time, writing the authors to request PDFs might work, but it can take days. Sometimes the authors have academic webpages where you can find (and download) a copy of their publications.
> Marcelo
> >________________________________
> > De: Bruno L. Giordano <brungio@xxxxxxxxx>
> >Para: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 6 de Agosto de 2012 15:02
> >Assunto: Re: [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free "Article Request" list
> >  
> >Hello,
> >
> >independently of how we feel about intellectual property issues, Brian's 
> >message is a useful (and constructive) reminder that this system should 
> >not be abused.
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >    Bruno
> >
> >
> >On 06/08/2012 12:38 PM, Marcelo Caetano wrote:
> >> Dear Brian and members of the list,
> >> I disagree with Brian's characterization of article requests as "rather
> >> excessive use of this list for obtaining articles". Personally, I have a
> >> hunch that the frequent article requests might better reflect flaws in
> >> the library system (amongs others) rather than plain laziness.
> >> Unfortunately, I don't have data to confirm this impression (does
> >> anyone?). However, we usually see immediate responses to article
> >> requests made on the list, in opposition to the alternatives Brian
> >> points out. Ultimately, I feel that this discussion is very in line
> >> with ongoing debates on issues about intellectual and property rights,
> >> and I think we all could very much benefit from actively engaging in it.
> >> Marcelo Caetano
> >>
> >>     *De:* Brian FG Katz <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx>
> >>     *Para:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>     *Enviadas:* Segunda-feira, 6 de Agosto de 2012 11:57
> >>     *Assunto:* [AUDITORY] exploitation of "Auditory List" as a free
> >>     "Article Request" list
> >>
> >>     Dear list members,
> >>
> >>     I would like to bring to people's attention the rather excessive use
> >>     of this
> >>     list for obtaining articles. While I understand that some articles
> >>     may be
> >>     hard to find, being old, or in obscure journals, the constant flow of
> >>     requests for articles that are clearly available, albeit for a fee, is
> >>     something of an abuse of the list and also the library system.
> >>
> >>     Student especially should profit from the systems in place at their
> >>     respective institutions, and if need be actually go to a library. Many
> >>     libraries also offer article retrieval services, which should be *fully*
> >>     exploited before make a global request to the open community.
> >>
> >>     Students are also encouraged to contact the authors directly to obtain
> >>     difficult articles, as a means of expressing interest, and possibly
> >>     opening
> >>     a dialog.
> >>
> >>     Only as a last resort should the list be used as a resource for "freely"
> >>     obtaining your bibliographic references.
> >>
> >>     Cordially,
> >>
> >>     -Brian FG Katz
> >>     --
> >>     Brian FG Katz, Ph.D
> >>     Audio & Acoustique
> >>     LIMSI-CNRS
> >>     BP 133
> >>     F91403 Orsay
> >>     France
> >>     tel. (+33) 01 69 85 81 55
> >>     fax. (+33)
> >>     e-mail Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx>
> >>     <mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx <mailto:Brian.Katz@xxxxxxxx>>
> >>     web_theme: http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/thmsonesp/
> >>     web_group: http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >